Obstruction or incidental contact?

[first2third]

Situation 1) runner is advancing to home. The throw is comming from right field to the plate the catcher has the ball innitially but drops it before the runner slides in. Runner doesn't reach the plate, pitcher picks up the ball and tags runner out. Possible runing a) runner is out b) runner is safe due to obstruction

Situation 2) Batter runner is going to first throw from F6 pulls F3 off the bag and into runners path. F3 never has the ball. Runner gets up touches first and proceeds to second but is put out on a close play at second. Posssible rullings a) runner is out due to incedental contact. b) we have obstruction and runner is safe at second. c) we have obstruction but in umires judgment, she would have only recieved first had the obstruction not occured, so runner returns to first.

The way I understand obstruction in softball is that the player must have possetion of the ball before they are allowed to obstruct the runner in any way. T or F

[Richard_Siegel]

Situation 1) runner is advancing to home. The throw is comming from right field to the plate the catcher has the ball innitially but drops it before the runner slides in. Runner doesn't reach the plate, pitcher picks up the ball and tags runner out. Possible runing a) runner is out b) runner is safe due to obstruction

Situation 2) Batter runner is going to first throw from F6 pulls F3 off the bag and into runners path. F3 never has the ball. Runner gets up touches first and proceeds to second but is put out on a close play at second. Posssible rullings a) runner is out due to incedental contact. b) we have obstruction and runner is safe at second. c) we have obstruction but in umires judgment, she would have only recieved first had the obstruction not occured, so runner returns to first.

The way I understand obstruction in softball is that the player must have possetion of the ball before they are allowed to obstruct the runner in any way. T or F

Yes, the player must have possession of the ball before he is allowed to block the runner.

In situation 1, if the catcher prevented the runner from reaching HP while F2 did not have posssession of the ball then it is OBS, and the runner should be awarded home.

In situation 2, if F3 hindered the BR's progress while F3 did not have posssession of the ball then it is OBS. At the moment of the OBS the umpire must make a judgment as to whether he believes the BR could reach 2B safely had there been no OBS. The umpire must look to see where the ball goes and how long it takes a fielder to get to it. If the BR decides to attempt to get to 2B and he is tagged out before he makes it to 2B these are the two decisions the umpires makes in each case:

Case 1) If the umpire decides the BR could NOT have made it to 2B had there been no OBS, that means the umpire only "protected" the BR to 1B. If the BR attempts to go beyond the base the umpire has protected him to, the BR is advancing at his own risk. If the BR is tagged out once he has gone beyond 1B, the play stands and the BR is out. (The BR is not sent back to 1B).

Case 2) If the umpire decides the BR could have made it to 2B had there been no OBS, that means the umpire has "protected" the BR to 2B. If the BR is tagged with the ball before he gets to 2B, do NOT call him out. Let all play finish (there might be other runners) then call "time." Award the BR 2B, for the obstruction of the first baseman. If the BR attempts to go to 3B, beyond the base the umpire has protected him to, the BR is advancing at his own risk.

Note: in the situation of Case #2, the BR must actually try to go to 2B in order to get the award of 2B if he is tagged with the ball before he gets to 2B. Suppose we have the same situation as in case #2. F3 obstructs the BR without the ball. But this time the BR just stays at 1B. Even though in your mind you have "protected" the BR to 2B, if the BR decides not to attempt to go to 2B that is where he will stay at the end of the play. Do not award the BR 2B while he is standing on 1B!

[Elfordo]

Since we're kind-of on the subject; I have a different sitch regarding OBS at 1b that I need an opinion from my umpire brothers.

What if, on a hit out to Right Field, the batter/runner rounds 1b on his way to 2nd and slams into F3 who's in the way. The BR falls down, and, by the time he gets back up, the throw from F9 is coming in to 2nd base. The BR, seeing that he now has no way of getting to 2B, trots back to 1B and then asks for an OBS ruling.

From the stands, where I was observing the game, it was extremely obvious that the BR was making an attempt at 2B when the collision occured.

The umpire ruled that, if the BR had gotten back up and continued on in his attempt at 2B, he would have been awarded the base. But since he returned to 1B, he was abandoning his attempt at 2B and therefore would have to stay at 1B. The Offensive Coach argued that, had the collision not occured, the BR would never have returned to 1B, so it was 'because' of the collision that the return to 1B happened.

Would you give the BR 2nd?

Chris

[Richard_Siegel]

Since we're kind-of on the subject; I have a different sitch regarding OBS at 1b that I need an opinion from my umpire brothers.

What if, on a hit out to Right Field, the batter/runner rounds 1b on his way to 2nd and slams into F3 who's in the way. The BR falls down, and, by the time he gets back up, the throw from F9 is coming in to 2nd base. The BR, seeing that he now has no way of getting to 2B, trots back to 1B and then asks for an OBS ruling.

From the stands, where I was observing the game, it was extremely obvious that the BR was making an attempt at 2B when the collision occured.

The umpire ruled that, if the BR had gotten back up and continued on in his attempt at 2B, he would have been awarded the base. But since he returned to 1B, he was abandoning his attempt at 2B and therefore would have to stay at 1B. The Offensive Coach argued that, had the collision not occured, the BR would never have returned to 1B, so it was 'because' of the collision that the return to 1B happened.

Would you give the BR 2nd?

Chris

In SB the runner is award the base he/she is going to.

[Elfordo]

Yes, I know that. That doesn't really answer my question.

You could argue that he was "going to" 2B when the obstruction happened so the BR should be given 2B. Or, you could argue that, once he picked himself back up (after the collision) and returned to 1B, he had abandoned his attempt at 2B, therfore he was now "going to" 1B.

Had I been umpiring that game, I would have called OBS and given the runner 2B. The ump that day did not. Which one of us is right?

Chris

[SocalBlue1]

Yes, I know that. That doesn't really answer my question.

You could argue that he was "going to" 2B when the obstruction happened so the BR should be given 2B. Or, you could argue that, once he picked himself back up (after the collision) and returned to 1B, he had abandoned his attempt at 2B, therfore he was now "going to" 1B.

Had I been umpiring that game, I would have called OBS and given the runner 2B. The ump that day did not. Which one of us is right?

Chris

Hint - not the guy on the field.

[patrick s]

If the BR is tagged with the ball before he gets to 2B, do NOT call him out. Let all play finish (there might be other runners) then call "time." Award the BR 2B, for the obstruction of the first baseman. If the BR attempts to go to 3B, beyond the base the umpire has protected him to, the BR is advancing at his own risk.

Note: in the situation of Case #2, the BR must actually try to go to 2B in order to get the award of 2B if he is tagged with the ball before he gets to 2B. Suppose we have the same situation as in case #2. F3 obstructs the BR without the ball. But this time the BR just stays at 1B. Even though in your mind you have "protected" the BR to 2B, if the BR decides not to attempt to go to 2B that is where he will stay at the end of the play. Do not award the BR 2B while he is standing on 1B!

I hate to be blasting the guru, but you're wrong, Richard. If the obstructed runner gets tagged out before she reaches the base she would have reached absent OBS, kill theball and award bases. And always award the base they would have achieved regardless of whether they attempted it or not!

Also, in SB, the runner does NOT get the base they are going to! It's the base they would have achieved had there been no OBS.

[heyblue26]

[QUOTE=patrick s;132119]I hate to be blasting the guru, but you're wrong, Richard.

Be careful thats twice now.

[patrick s]

Would you have me leave a statement, which I know to be wrong, unchallenged on a public message board where an unsuspecting player, coach or umpire might read it and take it as gospel? You or I might have them at a tnmt and have to clean up a mess.

[bigbird69]

Yeah, the rulebooks are all pretty clear on this one... If a play is being made on an obstructed runner, we the umpires are to kill it immediately and perform the awards. If no play is made on the OBS'd runner, let the play continue with a delayed dead ball.

[patrick s]

Yeah, the rulebooks are all pretty clear on this one... If a play is being made on an obstructed runner, we the umpires are to kill it immediately and perform the awards. If no play is made on the OBS'd runner, let the play continue with a delayed dead ball.

The rules say nothing about a play being made. They specifically say if an obstructed runner is tagged out between the two bases where the obstruction occurred or before she reaches the base she would have achieved had there been no obstruction, kill the ball, make awards. If not out, do nothing!

[bigbird69]

The rules say nothing about a play being made. They specifically say if an obstructed runner is tagged out between the two bases where the obstruction occurred or before she reaches the base she would have achieved had there been no obstruction, kill the ball, make awards. If not out, do nothing!

Really, last time I looked, the act of tagging a player is making a play on them... of course that may just be localized lingo, but it is really difficult to tag someone without making a play on them...

[patrick s]

Last time I looked, you can make a play on a runner, and the result of that play can be safe! In which case the ball remains live.