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Kato
07-21-2007, 08:52 PM
lost my virginity today - with two ejections in one game. Thought I'd share.

Ejection #1: Coached yelled from the dugout opening, "You can't call that pitch a strike, it was in the box!." I called Time and walked over to him, and he said, "what, I was talking to my batter." I said "I don't want to hear another word, coach." He said, "Blue, I'm the manager." I said, "that's another word, you're gone."

He then reported me to the tournament director, claiming I had not given him a warning first.

Ejection #2: I made a decision in the third inning (probably the wrong decision, on retrospect, if that matters), to have the manager remove a pitcher from the mound after his third struck batter in 2 innings. The manager disgreed. Some discussin ensued, and eventually we continued with a replacement batter. The manager said, "You know this is your last year here." (a threat to have me fired). I ignored him, and he repeated it. I then put the ball in play, and he then came onto the field to tell me that he was continuing the game under protest. This particular tournament states on its website under "Rules" that the umpires ruling is final and there are no protests. I ignored him. He left the field, play continued. A few batters later, I called a runner safe at the plate. He said, "you can't let the coach make the call, blue." I turned around, and he repeated the statement. I called Time, and walked over to him, and said "coach..." at which point he turned and walked toward the dugout exit. I repeated, "coach!" and he left the dugout. I said, "you're ejected."

He hung around for 5 minutes, we all stood around and stared at him till he left.

BigUmp56
07-21-2007, 09:53 PM
lost my virginity today - with two ejections in one game. Thought I'd share.

Ejection #1: Coached yelled from the dugout opening, "You can't call that pitch a strike, it was in the box!." I called Time and walked over to him, and he said, "what, I was talking to my batter." I said "I don't want to hear another word, coach." He said, "Blue, I'm the manager." I said, "that's another word, you're gone."

Kato,

This wasn't a good game management techinque on your part. First off, never walk towards a coach you're going to have a discussion with over a call or your strike zone. It makes you look like the aggressor. Let him be the bad guy. The next time a rat starts snipping about balls and strikes, just turn to him from your position and give him a stern " that's enough" or my favorite "we're not arguing balls and strikes today, Skip."

It's also bad form to bait a coach into an ejection. That's exactly what you did by using the old "one more word" ultimatim. You've painted the coach into a corner when we actually want to do everything we can to keep him in the game if at all possible. Truth is, what he said to you wasn't really worth getting worked up about unless it was persistant.

l

He then reported me to the tournament director, claiming I had not given him a warning first.

It's typical for a rat to claim they were'nt warned first before an ejection. Although we do like to give them a chance to stay in the game by issuing some kind of warning, it's certainly not required for us to do so.



Ejection #2: I made a decision in the third inning (probably the wrong decision, on retrospect, if that matters), to have the manager remove a pitcher from the mound after his third struck batter in 2 innings. The manager disgreed. Some discussin ensued, and eventually we continued with a replacement batter. The manager said, "You know this is your last year here." (a threat to have me fired). I ignored him, and he repeated it. I then put the ball in play, and he then came onto the field to tell me that he was continuing the game under protest. This particular tournament states on its website under "Rules" that the umpires ruling is final and there are no protests. I ignored him. He left the field, play continued. A few batters later, I called a runner safe at the plate. He said, "you can't let the coach make the call, blue." I turned around, and he repeated the statement. I called Time, and walked over to him, and said "coach..." at which point he turned and walked toward the dugout exit. I repeated, "coach!" and he left the dugout. I said, "you're ejected."

He hung around for 5 minutes, we all stood around and stared at him till he left.


Think about what you said in the first sentence in the above paragraph. Of course it matters to a coach when you start making stuff up. If I were the manager I would have been pretty pissed off at you myself for telling me how to run my team. It's not our job to dictate when or why he removes a pitcher because we don't want to see another player HBP. Unless, of course you feel he was doing it intentionally, which I doubt. All in all I'd say you're a little trigger happy right now. Especially when you insert yourself into the game. I'm not trying to get on your case. I just wan't you to gain a better understanding of when to eject and when to let it go in one ear and out the other. Like the comment about not letting the other coach influence your call. It's not a stand alone comment worthy of an ejection.



Tim.

Richard_Siegel
07-21-2007, 09:59 PM
Kato,

You haven't been listening. We do not threaten or give ultimatums. We do not say the phrase, "one more word or else..." We say, "That's enough!" The one more word phrase paints you into a corner. You ejected a guy for saying "I am the manager." Not really a terrible thing to say.

When a coach threatens you, and I am referring to the comment about it being your last year, that is an immediate ejection for intimidation. You missed a good one ther. Then you ejected him for ignoring you while he walked away? Not a terrible thing.

Unless there was a specific special rule in your tournament that required the replacement of the pitcher after X number of HBP you were totally out of line to force the coach to replace the pitcher.

Kato
07-21-2007, 10:01 PM
ok tim, thanks. I think I did some things right and some things wrong today.

I like your idea about not walking toward the dugout for the ejection 1. But, I think what he said was ejection-worthy, all on its own, without a warning. So I don't feel bad about that one.

For ejection 2 - at the time I didn't think I was making up a rule. I was under the belief (only decided retrospectively to have been wrong), that I was right. I did have my doubts, which was why I was willing to let the TD decide. But, the TD could not be produced. So I went with my judgement. I would like to change the decision I made to remove the pitcher - but, I would not change the decision I made to eject the manager.

Kato
07-21-2007, 10:05 PM
Kato,

You ejected a guy for saying "I am the manager." Not really a terrible thing to say.

It may have looked that way, which is unfortunate (for me). I ejected him for arguing balls and strikes.

When a coach threatens you, and I am referring to the comment about it being your last year, that is an immediate ejection for intimidation. You missed a good one ther. Then you ejected him for ignoring you while he walked away? Not a terrible thing.
I was planning to warn him when he walked away. I ejected him for saying "don't let the coach make the call". I am sure everyone there knew it was not for walking away. He happened to be walking away when I said it.

It's too bad I didn't eject for the threat though. The comment took me by surprise and I wasn't prepared to eject him for that.

BigUmp56
07-21-2007, 10:11 PM
It may have looked that way, which is unfortunate (for me). I ejected him for arguing balls and strikes.


Was this the first chirping you'd heard out of him? It's in their rat blood for a coach to try to argue the zone when they're team is batting. We should give them at least one good chance to b!t@*^ and then warn before we give them the heave-ho.


Tim.

Richard_Siegel
07-21-2007, 10:22 PM
Kato,

You ejected a guy for saying "I am the manager." Not really a terrible thing to say.

It may have looked that way, which is unfortunate (for me). I ejected him for arguing balls and strikes.

When a coach threatens you, and I am referring to the comment about it being your last year, that is an immediate ejection for intimidation. You missed a good one ther. Then you ejected him for ignoring you while he walked away? Not a terrible thing.
I was planning to warn him when he walked away. I ejected him for saying "don't let the coach make the call". I am sure everyone there knew it was not for walking away. He happened to be walking away when I said it.

It's too bad I didn't eject for the threat though. The comment took me by surprise and I wasn't prepared to eject him for that.

No you didn't eject him for arguing balls and strikes. You're saying that now to try and justify this bad ejection. You warned him (badly) not to say "one more word." Of coruse we know you really meant "not one more word about balls & strikes." However, when the manager said "I am the manager" you realized you painted yourself in a corner with the dumb "one more word mistake. You felt you had to eject him. You ejected him for saying "one more word." You even said it! "that's another word, you're gone." That's NOT good game control.

ExCop
07-21-2007, 11:16 PM
I"ll only address the issue of the repeated hit batters.

With kids, I may say something quietly between innings to the Manager like "Gee, you got another pitcher?". Hint hint sort of thing.

If there's no pitching change, and more betters get hit to the point where you are genuinely concerned about injuries, you could try this:

"Coach, are you going to remove this pitcher?"

["No, etc."]

"Are you saying he's pitching under control?"

["Yes"]

"Then I guess I was wrong and he's been hitting all those batters on purpose. He's ejected and so are you."

Obviously this disingenious tactic should be a last resort where some kid is going to get hurt and the Manager doesn't care because he's watching his pitchers' inning counts for the tournament cap.

As an aside, our house leage has a rule - 3 hit batters and the pitcher is done.

BigUmp56
07-21-2007, 11:35 PM
I"ll only address the issue of the repeated hit batters.

With kids, I may say something quietly between innings to the Manager like "Gee, you got another pitcher?". Hint hint sort of thing.

If there's no pitching change, and more betters get hit to the point where you are genuinely concerned about injuries, you could try this:

"Coach, are you going to remove this pitcher?"

["No, etc."]

"Are you saying he's pitching under control?"

["Yes"]

"Then I guess I was wrong and he's been hitting all those batters on purpose. He's ejected and so are you."

Obviously this disingenious tactic should be a last resort where some kid is going to get hurt and the Manager doesn't care because he's watching his pitchers' inning counts for the tournament cap.

As an aside, our house leage has a rule - 3 hit batters and the pitcher is done.

Sorry but I strongly disagree with these tactics as well as your house rule. As the old saying goes, "local rules are made by fools."



Tim.

Dano
07-21-2007, 11:41 PM
Sorry guys but I am a little confused here.

When did we umpires start giving suggestions to coaches on who to play and what positions?

BigUmp56
07-22-2007, 12:34 AM
Sorry guys but I am a little confused here.

When did we umpires start giving suggestions to coaches on who to play and what positions?

I don't think "we" is the right word here. There are some that don't know better..................yet.


Tim.

BKump
07-22-2007, 12:46 AM
I hit three batters while I was pitching one night. It had started to rain and the dirt was getting very slick. I hit the third and the umpire told my coach he had to pull me, and the manager did. Needless to say, I was pissed because I knew that was not a rule in our league. He admitted in a later game that it was not a rule and he made a mistake.

I don't think that we as umpires ever have any authority to tell managers how to manage their teams. If they want to leave their pitcher in and have them HBP all their runs in, thats up to them...I could care less. Or if someone gets hurt, its unfortunate, but still not my problem.

BigUmp56
07-22-2007, 01:15 AM
I hit three batters while I was pitching one night. It had started to rain and the dirt was getting very slick. I hit the third and the umpire told my coach he had to pull me, and the manager did. Needless to say, I was pissed because I knew that was not a rule in our league. He admitted in a later game that it was not a rule and he made a mistake.

I don't think that we as umpires ever have any authority to tell managers how to manage their teams. If they want to leave their pitcher in and have them HBP all their runs in, thats up to them...I could care less. Or if someone gets hurt, its unfortunate, but still not my problem.

Well said. There's enough of a penalty in place for a pitcher that can't throw the ball near the plate and continues to plunk batters. It's called a base award for HBP. If he gets enough of them his coach will yank him. I'm not going to intervene, no way, no how.



Tim.

AugieDonatelli
07-24-2007, 03:54 PM
I"ll only address the issue of the repeated hit batters.

With kids, I may say something quietly between innings to the Manager like "Gee, you got another pitcher?". Hint hint sort of thing.

If there's no pitching change, and more betters get hit to the point where you are genuinely concerned about injuries, you could try this:

"Coach, are you going to remove this pitcher?"

["No, etc."]

"Are you saying he's pitching under control?"

["Yes"]

"Then I guess I was wrong and he's been hitting all those batters on purpose. He's ejected and so are you."

Obviously this disingenious tactic should be a last resort where some kid is going to get hurt and the Manager doesn't care because he's watching his pitchers' inning counts for the tournament cap.

As an aside, our house leage has a rule - 3 hit batters and the pitcher is done.

Sorry but I strongly disagree with these tactics as well as your house rule. As the old saying goes, "local rules are made by fools."



Tim.
There are many leagues, mostly adult baseball, where there is a rule limiting the HBP by a given pitcher. It is usually after 3 in one inning and 4 in a game. When these rules are in place, the team getting plunked always reminds you of how many batters have been hit, and when the magic number arrives they demand that pitcher's removal.

JBowling
07-26-2007, 05:43 PM
Hmm. . . I thought the only time we could tell a manager that he had to remove his pitcher was when he was making a second trip in an inning or during same at bat (OBR, NCAA) for fourth trip in the game (FED, NCAA).

Must have missed the hit X amount of batters in the rule book. And it must be there because I hear armchair umpires quote that rule all the time too.

HoosierBlue
07-27-2007, 05:45 AM
I play MSBL (Men's Senior Baseball League) and the 3 HBPs per inning and 4 HBPs per game (per pitcher) is a standard and good rule. Games are 9 innings.

Our local youth ball league has no limits (Ages 9-14), and we umps have to be careful how we handle this issue. We had a vote last year to institute a limit of 3 HBPs per game per pitcher. The vote failed. The next town over adopted such a rule (3 is the limit).

If the pitcher throws slow and just has no control, I don't worry about injuries ... in fact, a savvy offensive coach won't want him pulled ... he'll gladly accept the free base runners.

I would have to agree with the majority here, the EJs were not handled well at all. Watch MLB games and NCAA games ... the umps never go toward an angry coach ... they hold their position and toss them all the time right from where they stand.

I once had an angry coach step out of the dugout and wave me over to him ... like I was his flunky. He was so mad his lip was quivering. When I didn't move and just stared at him, he finally approached me and grumbled that I was ignoring him. I asked him very quietly, "Coach, are you trying to intimidate me? Or are you wanting to say something that you don't want the players to hear? If that's the case, we can walk away to someplace private, but don't ever motion to me like that."

The guy was nearing the end of his first game of a DH and he was going to be hit for $250 if I ejected him ... he backed off immediately.

One thing I have learned the hard way, it is always a good idea to restrict a coach to the dugout if your league, your tourney, or your association allows it. When you want to eject him, first put him in the dugout, and he will know that he cannot step outside or say anything more in angst, or he advertises to the entire public that he just couldn't control himself. It's one of the few FED-specific mechanisms with which I totally agree.

AugieDonatelli
07-27-2007, 07:31 PM
Hmm. . . I thought the only time we could tell a manager that he had to remove his pitcher was when he was making a second trip in an inning or during same at bat (OBR, NCAA) for fourth trip in the game (FED, NCAA).

Must have missed the hit X amount of batters in the rule book. And it must be there because I hear armchair umpires quote that rule all the time too.

Are you just trying to be funny?

Of course the rule does not appear in the rule book. It's called a LEAGUE RULE, and is pretty much standard in many adult baseball leagues (such as NABA, ADABA, MSBL, Mexican-American, etc.). It is there to limit pitchers who have no control, and to help prevent injuries to folks that actually have to work for a living the other 6 days of the week.

I'm quite sure the people quoting the rule all the time are real umpires that really have worked these real adult leagues, and not from the comfort of their armchairs. :roll: