Should I have ejected him?

[BKump]

First of all, this is my first post! :D Glad to be here! I am a 16 year old umpire who has been umpiring for four seasons at the local youth league. I am the umpire coordinator at this league and do more paperwork than actual ballgames though. :?
Anyway, I was on first the first game of a double header with a four man crew. (Last game of the season--did a four game crew for fun, and man it was a blast!!!) This coach is known for trouble and actually was ejected and had his game forfeited last week in a different town. So, I was on first base when his team was up and there were two close calls at first back to back. I rung them both up...both out by a fraction of a step. After the final out on his way back to the first base side dugout, he said to me loud enough so fans/parents could hear, "You cost me two over there at first, I'm gonna start getting pissed. Tie goes to the runner." I just ignored him and walked over to the other ump doing second. We joked and said, "We are not in T-ball anymore, there are no such things as ties!" while trying to keep a straight face. So the next half inning, there was another close play at first, (this time his team in the field) and I called him safe. (Beat it out by a half step...another close play) He then said, "C'mon blue, we're out, they're safe? Be consistant!" I again, ignored him. There was also a close play at home that same game which he told the PU "Oh, you didnt see it! That was horrible, you didn't see it!. Thats horrible... etc etc etc." The PU still ignored him.
The second game, we all rotate. I am working second and there was a close play at first while his team was at bat, and the first base ump called him safe. He said while coaching third, "Well, that doesn't make up for that shitty strike call earlier." The third base umpire issued him a warning to which he replied, "Sorry, couldn't help myself." There were also a couple warnings issued to the bench for unsportsmanlike conduct, and throwing helmets. Before we could act on those though, the game was over.
Were we to lax with this guy? At what point should we have put him in the parking lot? We definitly did not let him get in the way of our fun though. Out of umpiring four years, that four man crew was the most fun game I have ever done! :D

[SocalBlue1]

Given your age & what I suspect is zero quality training - yup, you should have ejected him and likely several players.

1. NEVER let a rat continue with personal comments toward an umpire. "You" is personal as it gets.

2. It's clear this guy has zero respect for umpires. The only way he will learn is by ejecting early and often. Hopefully the league will realize that he is a liability and kick him out.

Your young. It can be very difficult to gain the respect of adults such as this one. A key objective over the fall / winter for you should getting a 'zero tolerance' rule put into place.

Do whatever it takes to get some quality training. Try the local HS association. You may not be old enough to umpire HS level but they may be able to help with training.

[/u]

[sargee7]

It's good to see some young blood willing to take over from us old farts, Welcome.

With this guys history he should have been gone with the end of the first comment and the beginning of the second comment. If you EJ'd then, depending on the rule set, you may not have had to put up with him in the second half of the DH.

[ExCop]

I'm junior in experience to most guys and gals here, but what I have learned - the hard way - is that if you ever find yourself asking the next day "Should I have ejected him?" the answer is pretty much always "Yes!" :x

I have often regretted NOT ejecting someone, but never the other way around!

Every league/umpire is different, but (especially with three other guys behind me) I would have tossed at "You cost me two over there at first, I'm gonna start getting pissed. Tie goes to the runner." Makes for a nice easy game after that....

[Ozzy]

BKump, when the coach blurted out "You cost me two over there at first, I'm gonna start getting pissed. Tie goes to the runner."
you should have responded with "That's enough, coach, We're not going there today". That tells him that you heard what he said and is also his "warning" to knock the $hit off! The very next outburst would be an ejection, no questions asked. This rat needs to be kept on a short leash.

Sixteen yeas old, huh? Good to see you take an interest in umpiring. Keep asking questions and keep a thick skin with this bunch of old farts (myself included). we'll "rip you apart" but you'll be a better official when you "heal"!

Regards

[lawump]

There is a wonderful eurekia moment that all umpires go through in their early development.

Most umpires start off (especially when they've had no training) hesitant, maybe a little scared/nervous and worried about coaches and getting into an argument with one.

These umpires tend to become timid when a coach starts whining, pissing and moaning OR outright arguing.

However, one day (if they stick with umpiring) they have that eurekia moment: The one day comes when they've had enough and "BAM!" they toss their first coach.

And then they realize: the game goes on. The birds still fly and sing...young kids are still singing "London Bridge" in the sandbox near the field (especially after a Tim C ejection!), and everything is going to be o.k.

But one thing is different! It is suddenly a lot more quiet and peaceful. For the rest of the game the umpire becomes more relaxed and begins to enjoy himself more. Why? Because the Dick is gone.

Let me give another example: According to one umpire auto-biography:

Earl Weaver was whining about pitches right from the beginning of one particular game. He was in a foul mood even for Earl. Very early in the game Earl's OWN pitcher called the plate umpire out ot the mound and said, "why don't you just toss him now and we ALL can have a nice quiet Sunday afternoon."

There's a good chance that if this coach is that bad...that his whole team (and maybe their parents) will be glad to see him go (maybe not...but maybe).

Its time for you to have your Eurekia moment. Give him Ozzy's warning. And even though we always teach umpires never to say, "one more word and you're done," in your mind THINK "one more word and he's done." And then BAM! send him packing when he opens his mouth again (which he will).

[Richard_Siegel]

Young umpires are often "tested" my adult coaches to see how much they can get away with and how much they can try and influence the umpire's future calls by complaining alot. So far you have failed the test. I'm sure you got the two whackers right when you called his runners out. His moaning is an attempt to get you give his team a break, or a second thought, on the next whacker.

Young umpires have an advantage we older "seasoned" umpires don't have. We are expected to "take it," to have a "thick skin," and not be upset by such behavior. As a "child," (under 18) you should not be subjected to anything that comes close to abuse. So if you dump a coach for saying practically anything negative to you, nobody is going to fault you for it. No adult is going to be able to defend himself with any kind of explanation or justification for speaking to a "child" that way.

I can assure you that it will only GET WORSE, if you don't start showing the rats that you will not take any crap. Once you dump a few and the word gets out you will not stand for any kind of crap they will become silent and cooperative.

[3appleshigh]

Absolutly he should be sent home, just as the rest have said. His first comment could send him packing, but I would suggest the warning, "That's Enough" But the comment A said you, and B was Counting That's two. When you hear that, in my head, I say well, If you count to three, You're gonna go. Stay happy, stay positive, and most of all stay polite. I always refer to coaches as Sir, often because I'm terrible with names, and because of my upbringing it is natural for me, but also it is a sign of respect, and when I have to write a report, I include it to show that I was calm and polite.

[MSPChris]

BKump, ... you should have responded with "That's enough, coach, We're not going there today".

Ozzy -- just curious, why not dump him right then and there? 16-year-old umpire, youth league (so the kids are probably U12?)... IMO, that's enough right there to warrant an EJ.

[BKump]

Thanks for the words of wisdom everyone! We do get some decent training from some high school certified umpires who are also involved in the league before the season starts. We go to several "clinics" were we have classroom sessions, and then go umpire practice games.
I do know that this guy is a trip, and nobody on his team even likes him. He probably should have been sent packing early in the first game, but like Lawump said, I haven't had my eurekia moment yet. ;)

It is definitly true though that coaches will just try to test younger umpires and see how far they can push us. 75% of our umpires in this league are in the 13-18 range, and although we all surprisingly do a fine job most of the time, there are coaches who will jump on our backs if we look at him funny. I can't count how many times I have heard the phrase, "I'm a grown man, you don't talk to me like that."

I have also done a game recently where the coach was complaining the whole game about my strikezone. He said it was too big and it was an eight year old game...first year kid pitch in this league. (If the strikezone isn't chin to shin, and about 6 inches off the plate, we would be here all night doing the mary-go-round.) It got to a point where I told myself, one more time he wants to mouth off to me, he's done. Later in the game after a pitch I heard a loud groan from the dugout. I turned to the dugout and there is the manager with his hands up and pointing to his coach saying, "It wasn't me!" 8)

If I was thinking, I would have tossed the manager anyway because he is responsible for his coaches/fans/players. :?

[Richard_Siegel]

... I can't count how many times I have heard the phrase, "I'm a grown man, you don't talk to me like that." ....

Ten years ago, when one of my sons was 15 a coach said that exact same phrase to him when my son warned him to knock off his complaining. My son's response, "OK, I that's a good idea. I won't talk to you all, I'll just toss you out of here right now. You're gone." And he dumped him right there. His report mentioned how the coach was trying to tell him how to umpire among his other crimes.

In future games for many years that coach would say not a single word to my son when he would umpire his games. It was great. Today this same coach is still actively coaching with other younger sons of his and he is now one of the best coaches to work for and show total respect to my son as when umpires his games.

... I have also done a game recently where the coach was complaining the whole game about my strikezone. ....

This sentence is very telling of your problem. You should never be able to say a coach was "complaining the whole game about," anything! Let the coach complain about something ONCE. If it's not too ugly you could ignore it and let it go without a warning. However, when he complains about it the second time, either give a VERY stern warning, dump him if you had given him a warning the first time, or dump him on the spot if the complaint contains a comment that is an automatic EJ.

In any case if you are allowing a coach to go on and on for the whole game about something you are not controlling the game. The longer you allow complaining the harder it is to justify dumping him for it. Suppose you allowed 14 complaints about your strike zone and now it is the 4th inning and you're at the point where you tell yourself, "one more time he wants to mouth off to me, he's done." Don't you think it will look strange to dump him for something you have been allowing all game without even a warning?

Just like we meet at HP before the game to set the ground rules for the players, we have to state the ground rules for the coaches too. We don't come up and say anything about it at the plate meeting, but we state it in other ways. When the first complaint comes you WARN him. You have now stated the "ground rules" for the coaches behavior for the rest of the game. You have put him on notice that he has one foot out the door.

Then when he crosses the line and does "it" again, then dump him you must. Try it, you'll like it.

[Davidsb63]

Thanks for the words of wisdom everyone! We do get some decent training from some high school certified umpires who are also involved in the league before the season starts. We go to several "clinics" were we have classroom sessions, and then go umpire practice games.
I do know that this guy is a trip, and nobody on his team even likes him. He probably should have been sent packing early in the first game, but like Lawump said, I haven't had my eurekia moment yet. ;)
BKump - sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. Keep with your instinct and advice from here and you will be far ahead of the game. Good luck.

[lawump]

Richard is all over this.

Let me give an actual example of how I handle arguing balls and strikes at a higher level:

I was the PU. It was a long inning, and the pitcher was struggling and had issued some base on balls.

Pitch comes in. I say, "Ball".

Manager, "Come on! That pitch was right there. Let's go." I simply gave him a look. It was nothing over-the-top.

Two pitches later: "Ball."

Manager: "Let's go. Those pitcher's are right there. We're going to be here forever. Bear down."
Me (with mask on) in a very stern voice. "That's enough with the balls & strikes."
Manager (on top step of dugout): "You're F'n killing us back there."
Me (mask comes off & big mechanic): "Good-bye."

[Davidsb63]

I have often regretted NOT ejecting someone, but never the other way around!OH SO TRUE!! I am still kicking myself for not dumping a coach a couple weeks ago. He asked me a couple times where a strike was, told him enough. An inning later, he asked his catcher where a pitch was and I should have tossed him right there and then. Oh well, woulda, coulda, shoulda. Another learning experience.

[BKump]

In any case if you are allowing a coach to go on and on for the whole game about something you are not controlling the game. The longer you allow complaining the harder it is to justify dumping him for it. Suppose you allowed 14 complaints about your strike zone and now it is the 4th inning and you're at the point where you tell yourself, "one more time he wants to mouth off to me, he's done." Don't you think it will look strange to dump him for something you have been allowing all game without even a warning?


I have never thought about it that way, but it makes perfect sence.

Another question. During that 8 year old game, same argument, same coach: After the conversation was over near the mound, I walk back to dust off HP. He then says (I cant remember exactly) "He called a pitch almost in the dirt, its horrible," or something along those lines really loud so everyone in the area could hear. I look up and say, "Coach, enough!" so everyone could hear. (I think I remember reading somewhere, might even be here, that if they say something to you quietly, you respond quietly. If they say something so everyone can hear, you respond so everyone can hear.) He screamed back, "I'm talking to my wife, mind your own business!"
Another ejection opportunity? :oops:

[gilbert924]

He screamed back, "I'm talking to my wife, mind your own business!"
Another ejection opportunity? :oops:

"Well coach, you can talk to her in the parking lot. You're Gone."

[jjb]

Absolutely. He said it for your benefit, not his wife's.

[Richard_Siegel]

"I'm talking to my wife, mind your own business!"
Another ejection opportunity?

Absolutely. Actually you got two!

First of all that's bull crap! His wife was probably at home. YOU KNOW he wasn't talking to his wife and don't even give him the benifit of the doubt that he might have been. And even if he really was talking to his wife you might say, "That's too bad coach, because I think you were talking to me. Now go tell your wife to start the car because you're going home." Coaches often think they can say anything they want as long as they tell you it was said to somebody else. My standard response is, "Coach, if I can hear it, you''re saying it to me."

The phrase "mind your own business!" said in any context from a coach to an umpire is an EJ. NOBODY tells you what to do, say, or think on the ball field. Another EJ.

[lawump]

He screamed back, "I'm talking to my wife, mind your own business!"


Me: "Then let me give you a chance to have a prolonged conversation with your wife...you're done."

[BKump]

Thanks for the advice everyone! I will definitly come into this coming fall ball season and next year summer season with a new, and more firm prospective! Hopefully a more firm stance will force these idiots to have more respect for the game.

[Ozzy]

BKump, ... you should have responded with "That's enough, coach, We're not going there today".

Ozzy -- just curious, why not dump him right then and there? 16-year-old umpire, youth league (so the kids are probably U12?)... IMO, that's enough right there to warrant an EJ.
Sorry for the delay....

Over the years, I have found that the "That's enough..." statement works wonders. Smart coaches clam up and things go just fine. Dumb coaches continue to run their flappers and eject themselves - and that's just how you want it.

Age is not a factor either. Sixteen or sixty, once you give 'em the "That's enough..." statement:
1. They know that you are serious.
2. They now have their precious "warning".
3. The next outburst gives them the heave-ho!
It's just another way to "play their game"

Regards

[waltjp]

"I'm talking to my wife, mind your own business!"
Another ejection opportunity? :oops:

Indeed, yes! Tell him he's got plenty of time to talk to his wife now.

[waltjp]

Over the years, I have found that the "That's enough..." statement works wonders. Smart coaches clam up and things go just fine. Dumb coaches continue to run their flappers and eject themselves - and that's just how you want it.

Age is not a factor either. Sixteen or sixty, once you give 'em the "That's enough..." statement:
1. They know that you are serious.
2. They now have their precious "warning".
3. The next outburst gives them the heave-ho!
It's just another way to "play their game"

Regards

"That's enough" is the perfect warning.

The four stages of warning:

1. Ignore

2. Acknowledge (Could be just a look in their direction)

3. Warn

4. Eject

[3appleshigh]

I can't count how many times I have heard the phrase, "I'm a grown man, you don't talk to me like that."



Ok be a grown man in the parking lot -- BU - BYE!!!

Sadly because of the training you have given the coaches now, you will need possible 10-12 ejections before word gets out that you don't take sh*t from anyone. Then you will see how Baseball is meant to be played. In my first 3 years in umpiring I had 10-15 ejections per year, I now have 2-4 per year for the last 5 yrs. You need to set a precident, and stick to it, then your leach can get longer and longer, and the Dog won't stray very far at all.

[Baloo]

This past weekend I was BU at a Midget level game ( 16 - 18 year olds). Not sure what level that would be in tthe US (Senior LL maybe?) and the HC comes out to talk to his pitcher, f shots abounding from HC during the convo all of which I could hear, the pitcher responds to HC using the same colourful language when HC tells him not to sweear at him. Question, should I have issued a warning to HC from the first f shot since I heard it or no? I usually issue a warning at the plate meeting when I do younger levels but since these guys are older I don't bother. I have had to EJ coaches for language in younger games I also make sure that the coach knows HE is responsible for his spectators behaviour during the game and that he will be EJ'd if he can't keep his parents under control.

[Richard_Siegel]

This past weekend I was BU at a Midget level game ( 16 - 18 year olds). Not sure what level that would be in tthe US (Senior LL maybe?) and the HC comes out to talk to his pitcher, f shots abounding from HC during the convo all of which I could hear, the pitcher responds to HC using the same colourful language when HC tells him not to sweear at him. Question, should I have issued a warning to HC from the first f shot since I heard it or no? I usually issue a warning at the plate meeting when I do younger levels but since these guys are older I don't bother. I have had to EJ coaches for language in younger games I also make sure that the coach knows HE is responsible for his spectators behaviour during the game and that he will be EJ'd if he can't keep his parents under control.

16 to 18 y/o players? Whatever the HC says to his players is totally none of your business. If the player is speaking disrepectfully to the HC it is the HC's problem, not yours. You should generally keep out of anything spoken between a coach and a player over 12 y/o. Under you might intervene, but even then, it really has to be VERY nasty.

If the "convo" was very loud and obnoxious and nearby to spectators you might want to move them farther away or quiet them down. but the content of the discussion is not your jurisdiction.

Anything said to YOU or about YOU that you don't like is grounds for ejection.

[Tim_C]

As Richard noted (and as I have posted here for years) I do not involve myself when coaches and players (or teammate players) talk to each other when working "big boy" ball.

I turn my attention to other issues.

Regards,

[ExCop]

As Richard noted (and as I have posted here for years) I do not involve myself when coaches and players (or teammate players) talk to each other when working "big boy" ball.

I turn my attention to other issues.

Regards,

OK. Infield at the mound with Manager during "Time", and in a normal audible voice (may be heard outside of the mound meeting without eavesdropping):

"OK guys, we need to pull together. This umpire just sucks. He has the worst strike zone ever and he has obviously been bribed by the other team. Just do your best."

Still none of your business?

[Richard_Siegel]

As Richard noted (and as I have posted here for years) I do not involve myself when coaches and players (or teammate players) talk to each other when working "big boy" ball.

I turn my attention to other issues.

Regards,

OK. Infield at the mound with Manager during "Time", and in a normal audible voice (may be heard outside of the mound meeting without eavesdropping):

"OK guys, we need to pull together. This umpire just sucks. He has the worst strike zone ever and he has obviously been bribed by the other team. Just do your best."

Still none of your business?

Yes, you should still keep out of it. Unless the HC was really shouting so dugouts could hear it. Because then he is deliberately saying it for you to hear.

Under "normal audible voice" conditions, you don't hear, or react to it. However, you do go out there briskly and break up the meeting a little quicker. You should begin speaking to the HC BEFORE you arrive at the mound so he can't speak to you first. When you're 6 or 8 feet from the meeting say, "OK Coach, are you bring in a new pitcher? Otherwise we have to get going now. Let's go." Say it as you look right into his eys and then wait for a repsonse to YOUR question. If he was really that pissed he would say his crap to your face. But since you asked him a question FIRST, he has to answer it. So, If he NOW comes out with any crap about your performance or skill as an umpire you now have excellant grounds for an ejection. 1) you asked him a question about a pitcher change and he came back with an arguement.

During mound conferences, especially when it is at a time the HC seems to be annoyed with an umpire, the BU shoudl turn and go to the OF and stand in a way that makes it look like you're not interested and he cannot hear what is being said on the mound. As PU you should first dust off HP, stand near HP and look away from the meeting so it will appear that you're not interested in hearing what they are saying. Once you feel they have taken enough time and they are not breaking it up, then start walking out BRISKLY.

[ExCop]

Under "normal audible voice" conditions, you don't hear, or react to it. However, you do go out there briskly and break up the meeting a little quicker. You should begin speaking to the HC BEFORE you arrive at the mound so he can't speak to you first. When you're 6 or 8 feet from the meeting say, "OK Coach, are you bring in a new pitcher? Otherwise we have to get going now. Let's go." Say it as you look right into his eys and then wait for a repsonse to YOUR question. If he was really that pissed he would say his crap to your face. But since you asked him a question FIRST, he has to answer it. So, If he NOW comes out with any crap about your performance or skill as an umpire you now have excellant grounds for an ejection. 1) you asked him a question about a pitcher change and he came back with an arguement.

During mound conferences, especially when it is at a time the HC seems to be annoyed with an umpire, the BU shoudl turn and go to the OF and stand in a way that makes it look like you're not interested and he cannot hear what is being said on the mound. As PU you should first dust off HP, stand near HP and look away from the meeting so it will appear that you're not interested in hearing what they are saying. Once you feel they have taken enough time and they are not breaking it up, then start walking out BRISKLY.

Hmmm. OK, you're right. I'll buy this advice. Thanks.

[Tim_C]

So why are you changing the situation? Simply because I don't call like you do?

In your example I could not possibly hear what a manager is saying on the mound . . . if I was a base umpire I would be out of the area as the pitcher and catcher belong to the plate umpire. If I was the plate umpire I would be near the plate and I have NEVER heard a normal conversation on the mound from my proper position nearer home plate.

Now specifically about your changed situation:

While officiating basketball often during "Time Outs", when I was the administering official located near the bench and huddle area, I heard coaches do this type of comment -- usually I let the time out finish and then confront the coach and tell him to have enough guts to talk directly to me . . . (baiting) . . . and that used to work.

In your made up example I guess if the manager was talking so loud I could hear him I would give him the big finger.

Again, I am violating my own rule in answering your post period.

Regards,

[ExCop]

Again, I am violating my own rule in answering your post period.

Is that OBR or FED? :wink:

Never mind....

[bigblue2u]

A good rule of thumb: When you are young and/or just getting started, managers and coaches will usually be telling you. After you have established credibility, they will usually be asking you.

[AugieDonatelli]

I have often regretted NOT ejecting someone, but never the other way around!OH SO TRUE!! I am still kicking myself for not dumping a coach a couple weeks ago. He asked me a couple times where a strike was, told him enough. An inning later, he asked his catcher where a pitch was and I should have tossed him right there and then. Oh well, woulda, coulda, shoulda. Another learning experience.

I am still kicking myself for not running a LL manager back in 1986, my rookie year. I was working solo, and this guy kept asking for it and I kept letting it go, saying to myself that if he does it again he's gone. Never ran him. He walked all over me all game long.

All the way home from the game I was kicking myself. I was thinking about how the day before, Charlie Williams kicked Steve Boros out of the ball game for bringing a video tape to the home plate meeting. The tape was of the game before where Williams had run Steve Garvey for telling him to "bear down." I thought, "man, if Charlie Williams has the stones to run Garvey and Boros, I should have manned up and ran this joker."

Ever since that day, which was an epiphany, or "eureka" moment, I have had no problem whatsoever pulling the trigger whenever necessary.