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OakcreekTV
07-01-2007, 06:31 PM
This is my second year of umpiring and last week I had my first ejection. The head coach of a U10 team got himself dumped for arguing balls and strikes after being warned. There was no big altercation. The coach wasn't happy of course. He had a few things to say about me and my partner as he gathered his things to leave. I didn't say a word, I just walked up the first base line to give him a little time to vacate the field and he did after a minute or two

The situation is this, I see on my schedule that I have this coach's team again in two weeks. In the first 24 hours after the ejection my initial feeling was to have my assigner pull me off this game. My reasoning was "why pour gasoline on a fire?" Then, when I thought about it for awhile I decided that might be an extremely dumb thing to do.

So, in two weeks we will meet again. My question to all of you is this: "How have any of you handled a redux with a coach you've recently ejected?"

Jim_Porter
07-01-2007, 06:40 PM
You simply move on as if the ejection never happened, unless he makes it an issue first. If he makes it an issue, then give him a very short leash.

And what the hell is an U10 coach doing abusing umpires? What a ninny!

07-01-2007, 09:25 PM
Yeah, it's just a entirely new game...The scoreboard reads 0 - 0 when you walk onto that field and it means more than just the score..It also means it's a new day and a new game and what happened in the past is just that --in the past...

Sure, the thought of what happened may still be in your mind, but think of it this way--it's also in HIS mind as well and, more times than not, I've noticed that coaches that I've dumped recently never give me another minutes problem the next time(s) out. So this coach may be thinking the same exact thing...You need to just forget this entire incident and call your game...

batboy22
07-02-2007, 03:24 AM
I'm not going into details but, I ejected 3 coaches on one team in the same game. I've had them 6 or 7 now and have had no other problems. We seem to have developed a professional relationship.

Kato
07-02-2007, 02:10 PM
My second year umpiring too. Some coaches (and apparently their wives) have long memories. Found that out last night. I did a tournament 11U game, bases (thank god I had a very experienced, well-known partner at the plate, as my witness).

I have never ejected anyone but I did warn this one coach, during the regular LL season, 2 months ago. How I warned him must have been particularly emasculating for him (I am female, btw). When I went to warn him, he turned around and tried to walk out of the dugout. I said, "If you walk out of this dugout you are not coming back tonight." (I could have handled that differently but that's 20-20 hindsight - I've moved on). He immediately turned around and came back into the dugout. I had forgotten all about it. Well, last night this one lady in the stands was complaining LOUDLY the whole game. I made a call (double play) she didn't like and she said, "it's not funny! this isn't about us, it's about the kids! They're 11 years old, for God's sake. This is so wrong!" and "take it out on 11 year old kids." I had no idea who she was, so I was baffled by these comments. She went on and on through the whole game, even "threatened" to call and report me to the president of my LL association (this was a tournament game in a different town and had nothing to do with LL - again, the mention of our LL president baffled me).

At some point it became clear that she was the wife of the coach I had warned 2 months earlier, who was coaching 1st base the whole game. I didn't even recognize him until the game was almost over. I walked over to speak to him about a comment he made, and he turned around and wouldn't look at me. Had his back to me and wouldn't turn around. At that point I recognized him. Then I put two and two together. It's the only explanation I can come up with for her bizarre behavior.

The opposing team's 1st base coach told me he thought the woman was drunk. Every time the opposing team's coach came to 1st base he commented on it. She might have been drunk.

The whole thing was just weird.

JBowling
07-02-2007, 03:17 PM
"it's not funny! this isn't about us, it's about the kids! They're 11 years old, for God's sake. This is so wrong!" and "take it out on 11 year old kids."

The opposing team's 1st base coach told me he thought the woman was drunk. Every time the opposing team's coach came to 1st base he commented on it. She might have been drunk.

The whole thing was just weird.

Yeah, that's a real good example to be setting for 11 y/o kids.

For you situation Kato and the OP, don't even bring up what happened in the past. If the coach brings it up, say that's old news and it's over. If coach says anything about it other than, "you're right blue, I'm sorry." Send him packing, as he is more worried about other things.

Mike Goble
07-02-2007, 03:32 PM
I had forgotten all about it. Well, last night this one lady in the stands was complaining LOUDLY the whole game. I made a call (double play) she didn't like and she said, "it's not funny! this isn't about us, it's about the kids! They're 11 years old, for God's sake. This is so wrong!" and "take it out on 11 year old kids."

That's the lamest excuse in all of youth sports. If it was all about the kids, you'd have kids in the coaches boxes, pitchers and catchers calling their own pitches and parents who would just sit there and watch the game.

lawump
07-02-2007, 03:41 PM
Not an ejection. But:

I once had a long argument in Game 1 of a double-header. This was a junior college game. The head coach pulled his team off the field and refused to play unless we changed our call...we refused. I told the coach that if he didn't put his team back on the field, the game was over. He refused. So I said loudly (so both teams could hear):

"That's game. We'll be back out here in 20 minutes ready to go. If you're not, I don't care...we get paid either way and we can go have a nice dinner."

During those 20-minutes I was convinced we were going to have an absolute shithouse before Game 2 and likely never play it. Instead, we played Game 2 without a single incident. The whole game happened as if nothing had occurred in Game 1. It was surreal.

Anyways, the point is: don't carry anything over. There's a good chance the coaches aren't carrying it over. Hell, this coach (though he cost his team a game) had totally moved on within 20-minutes.

archangel14
07-02-2007, 04:57 PM
[quote="Sure, the thought of what happened may still be in your mind, but think of it this way--it's also in HIS mind as well . So this coach may be thinking the same exact thing.....[/quote]

Rarely is the coach thinking of this before the game...They dont know who the umps are until they show up. But I'm sure you will be recognized by the tossed coach and he will be thinking of it then...

Kato
07-02-2007, 05:20 PM
I had forgotten all about it. Well, last night this one lady in the stands was complaining LOUDLY the whole game. I made a call (double play) she didn't like and she said, "it's not funny! this isn't about us, it's about the kids! They're 11 years old, for God's sake. This is so wrong!" and "take it out on 11 year old kids."

That's the lamest excuse in all of youth sports. If it was all about the kids, you'd have kids in the coaches boxes, pitchers and catchers calling their own pitches and parents who would just sit there and watch the game.

I guess the implication was that I was deliberately calling her team out, to get back at her for some grudge that we had against each other, which existed only in her head - since I had never seen her before in my life. She was telling me not to take my personal vendetta out on these poor 11yo kids. Ironically, I started the game with a bias TOWARD her team, since they are from my town.

Her team lost.

Not with my help. All on their own.

I shed no tears.

umpduck11
07-02-2007, 10:26 PM
When I went to warn him, he turned around and tried to walk out of the dugout. I said, "If you walk out of this dugout you are not coming back tonight." (I could have handled that differently but that's 20-20 hindsight - I've moved on). He immediately turned around and came back into the dugout.

May I ask why you were in the dugout in the first place ? If you need to talk to a coach, do it on the field, not in his dugout. 8O

Kato
07-02-2007, 10:42 PM
When I went to warn him, he turned around and tried to walk out of the dugout. I said, "If you walk out of this dugout you are not coming back tonight." (I could have handled that differently but that's 20-20 hindsight - I've moved on). He immediately turned around and came back into the dugout.

May I ask why you were in the dugout in the first place ? If you need to talk to a coach, do it on the field, not in his dugout. 8O

I wasn't in the dugout. I was on the field, talking to him through the dugout fence. He had retreated from the field into the dugout, but I stopped at the fence.

ETA: there are two doorways into the dugout - one leading to the field, and one leading to the area outside of the field, the common area. When I first approached him he went into the dugout from the field. Then when he saw I was still coming, he tried to leave the dugout through the other doorway that lead to the area between fields. That is the doorway he stopped in, and turned around and re-entered the dugout when I told him not to walk away from me.

umpduck11
07-02-2007, 11:24 PM
When I went to warn him, he turned around and tried to walk out of the dugout. I said, "If you walk out of this dugout you are not coming back tonight." (I could have handled that differently but that's 20-20 hindsight - I've moved on). He immediately turned around and came back into the dugout.

May I ask why you were in the dugout in the first place ? If you need to talk to a coach, do it on the field, not in his dugout. 8O

I wasn't in the dugout. I was on the field, talking to him through the dugout fence. He had retreated from the field into the dugout, but I stopped at the fence.

ETA: there are two doorways into the dugout - one leading to the field, and one leading to the area outside of the field, the common area. When I first approached him he went into the dugout from the field. Then when he saw I was still coming, he tried to leave the dugout through the other doorway that lead to the area between fields. That is the doorway he stopped in, and turned around and re-entered the dugout when I told him not to walk away from me.

Understood. Your original post was phrased in a manner that led me to believe that you were in the dugout also..... my mistake.

Kato
07-02-2007, 11:35 PM
yeah, I can easily see how it would have looked that way from what I wrote. And you must have thought I was nuts.

umpduck11
07-02-2007, 11:47 PM
yeah, I can easily see how it would have looked that way from what I wrote. And you must have thought I was nuts.

Well.......... :roll:

:D

SocalBlue1
07-03-2007, 12:02 AM
When I went to warn him, he turned around and tried to walk out of the dugout. I said, "If you walk out of this dugout you are not coming back tonight." (I could have handled that differently but that's 20-20 hindsight - I've moved on). He immediately turned around and came back into the dugout.

May I ask why you were in the dugout in the first place ? If you need to talk to a coach, do it on the field, not in his dugout. 8O

I wasn't in the dugout. I was on the field, talking to him through the dugout fence. He had retreated from the field into the dugout, but I stopped at the fence.

ETA: there are two doorways into the dugout - one leading to the field, and one leading to the area outside of the field, the common area. When I first approached him he went into the dugout from the field. Then when he saw I was still coming, he tried to leave the dugout through the other doorway that lead to the area between fields. That is the doorway he stopped in, and turned around and re-entered the dugout when I told him not to walk away from me.

If you felt the need to go to the dugout area and warn a coach / manager NEVER call them back - eject right then and there! This is is an intentional attempt to "show you up" and proves he has zero respect for you.

Kato
07-03-2007, 12:30 AM
If you felt the need to go to the dugout area and warn a coach / manager NEVER call them back - eject right then and there! This is is an intentional attempt to "show you up" and proves he has zero respect for you.

oh trust me, I know I screwed that one up. I WISH I could do that one over. But like I said, hindsight is 20/20. Nothing I can do about it now.

I had my second chance to eject him when I talked to him last night and he refused to turn around and look at me. Screwed it up again. *sigh*... explains why I'm still an ejection virgin.

But, the point of my post in reply to the OP was really about his wife, and her grudge against me which she carried over to a game 2 months later - in a different town, with a different team.

ehh.. then again she could have just been a drunk lunatic and not a good example of the post-conflict grudge.

SocalBlue1
07-03-2007, 01:18 AM
If you felt the need to go to the dugout area and warn a coach / manager NEVER call them back - eject right then and there! This is is an intentional attempt to "show you up" and proves he has zero respect for you.

oh trust me, I know I screwed that one up. I WISH I could do that one over. But like I said, hindsight is 20/20. Nothing I can do about it now.

I had my second chance to eject him when I talked to him last night and he refused to turn around and look at me. Screwed it up again. *sigh*... explains why I'm still an ejection virgin.

But, the point of my post in reply to the OP was really about his wife, and her grudge against me which she carried over to a game 2 months later - in a different town, with a different team.

ehh.. then again she could have just been a drunk lunatic and not a good example of the post-conflict grudge.

Your starting to learn, so that's very good. As far as this coach goes, PLAN on ejecting him your next game. The second he turns his back on you or refuses to follow direction, toss him! Use a BIG ejection mechanic too (Nice sweeping motion with right hand a simple <LOUD> "OUT!"). Trust me, this guy will make a complete fool out of himself. MAKE SURE you cover this in pre-game with your partner, so he/she can step in to escort ex-coach off field.

As far as the wife: If she is truly that bad, put both teams into dugouts and call the person responsible for the field to get rid of her. Keep the teams in until she leaves & DO NOT BACK DOWN. Just be sure that she needs to go, as this is a huge step in some leagues.

Kato
07-03-2007, 01:54 AM
As far as this coach goes, PLAN on ejecting him your next game. The second he turns his back on you or refuses to follow direction, toss him!

Yeah. I probably need that proactive plan in place. You know, he's rat-smart: he says things just within earshot of me, but directed at the dugout so that he can claim he wasn't saying it *to* me. I guess my fear is that I will be seen as over-reacting, and then I will be accused of ejecting him from *this* game on the basis of a grudge from a *previous* game (which would be partially true). So I wimp out.

I need to grow a set. You know, women are taught from birth that your value as a person is measured by how many people like you. It's a hurdle to overcome as a female umpire. Not insurmountable, but an extra hurdle.

SocalBlue1
07-03-2007, 02:09 AM
As far as this coach goes, PLAN on ejecting him your next game. The second he turns his back on you or refuses to follow direction, toss him!

Yeah. I probably need that proactive plan in place. You know, he's rat-smart: he says things just within earshot of me, but directed at the dugout so that he can claim he wasn't saying it *to* me. I guess my fear is that I will be seen as over-reacting, and then I will be accused of ejecting him from *this* game on the basis of a grudge from a *previous* game (which would be partially true). So I wimp out.

I need to grow a set. You know, women are taught from birth that your value as a person is measured by how many people like you. It's a hurdle to overcome as a female umpire. Not insurmountable, but an extra hurdle.

Don't be concerned with this rat having his back to you, esp the old excuse "I wasn't talking to you". Answer is "You were talking about me", which has the exact same result (Any one of the three P's and see ya).

I have two daughters (Now 20 & 16) that umpire. They both went through similar situations before they tossed the 1st rat.

In fact we were working the same play off game as a three umpire crew. U3 called runner out for leaving early at 2B (No brainer - she was 3-4 steps off bag before F1 released ball). Manager goes out to argue & oldest tosses him for dropping an f-bomb. Youngest tosses player for commenting "that b1%$ has no clue".

After getting the everyone off the field (It was difficult for me NOT to laugh) we finished the game. Took less than 5 minutes to write the reports and give to TD. Took entire crew + mom out to a nice dinner & movie to celebrate.

Had same team in semi-finals. VERY quiet game except for what I assume was managers wife or players mother (May have been both). Fans around her hushed her up quick.

3appleshigh
07-03-2007, 04:53 PM
Well Kato Not to teach you how to Bate, But here is how.

When the coach starts to play his game of calling you names or whatever without looking at you, play the same game, get in your set position and talk to him, about how he needs to close his mouth and coach the game, or His job is to tell players to Turn left, he doesn't need to flap his gums to do that, or that he needs to get a rulebook and read it "if he knows how to read?" But again all this in a calm voice he can hear, the fans can't, he will either shut up or blow up. And your goal is accomplished. Most likely a Rat like this will not take that from a "Girl Ump". Some coachs think they are sooo smart, they might need a bating, but to be honest, UMP'S are in demand, if you do not which you don't make a habit of ejecting people your association will not gety rid of you for a few "unknown cause" ejections. Just send the guy home, and write the report. EASY PEASY LEMON SQUEEZY

Matt13
07-03-2007, 08:04 PM
Well Kato Not to teach you how to Bate, But here is how.

Huh?

When the coach starts to play his game of calling you names or whatever without looking at you, play the same game, get in your set position and talk to him, about how he needs to close his mouth and coach the game, or His job is to tell players to Turn left, he doesn't need to flap his gums to do that, or that he needs to get a rulebook and read it "if he knows how to read?" But again all this in a calm voice he can hear, the fans can't, he will either shut up or blow up. And your goal is accomplished. Most likely a Rat like this will not take that from a "Girl Ump". Some coachs think they are sooo smart, they might need a bating, but to be honest, UMP'S are in demand, if you do not which you don't make a habit of ejecting people your association will not gety rid of you for a few "unknown cause" ejections. Just send the guy home, and write the report. EASY PEASY LEMON SQUEEZY

DO NOT take this advice.

It's very easy to maintain a pattern of baiting once you start. And if you do it in a few games, and complaints make it to the right places, your standing in an association will be affected.

If he warrants ejection, do it. If he doesn't, then don't. It is really that simple. If you think you'll be seen as over-reacting, so what? If you "over-react" constantly, you have a fixable problem. However, chances are you won't need to, because after two or three times, those problem situations tend to go away.

ziggys141
07-03-2007, 09:01 PM
When the coach starts to play his game of calling you names or whatever without looking at you, play the same game, get in your set position and talk to him, about how he needs to close his mouth and coach the game, or His job is to tell players to Turn left, he doesn't need to flap his gums to do that, or that he needs to get a rulebook and read it "if he knows how to read?" But again all this in a calm voice he can hear, the fans can't, he will either shut up or blow up. And your goal is accomplished. Most likely a Rat like this will not take that from a "Girl Ump". Some coachs think they are sooo smart, they might need a bating, but to be honest, UMP'S are in demand, if you do not which you don't make a habit of ejecting people your association will not gety rid of you for a few "unknown cause" ejections. Just send the guy home, and write the report. EASY PEASY LEMON SQUEEZY

The most unprofessional thing I've seen on this forum. You do this and not only will you not get respect from the coaches, you are proving you can't hack the heat, exactly what the coaches want to believe. The coach has tested you, and you have failed. In addition, you will lose the respect of fellow umpires. It would be impossible for me to back any action like this taken my my partner.

bamatazz
07-03-2007, 09:43 PM
Kato,

If he is saying something just within earshot of you "to his bench" that is worthy of an ejection, do the same with the ejection. Don't be loud about it and don't make any movements, just tell him, within ear shot that he is gone. Then when he blows up, HE will be seen as the aggressor, not you. You can then give him the big HEAVE-HO. He has already done something to deserve the ejection, but because it was just within ear shot and no one else could hear it, if you gave him a "loud and proud" ejection, you would be seen as the aggressor.

SocalBlue1
07-03-2007, 10:29 PM
Kato,

If he is saying something just within earshot of you "to his bench" that is worthy of an ejection, do the same with the ejection. Don't be loud about it and don't make any movements, just tell him, within ear shot that he is gone. Then when he blows up, HE will be seen as the aggressor, not you. You can then give him the big HEAVE-HO. He has already done something to deserve the ejection, but because it was just within ear shot and no one else could hear it, if you gave him a "loud and proud" ejection, you would be seen as the aggressor.

Good advice!

Another option when he turns his back: "What did you say about me?" just loud enough for the bench / stands to hear. Rat will do one of two things - sgut up (The real goal) or turn around and start flapping, leading to instant ejection. Either way everyone wins.

So far as 'baiting' goes: DON'T!

Kato
07-04-2007, 12:48 AM
Kato,

If he is saying something just within earshot of you "to his bench" that is worthy of an ejection, do the same with the ejection.

LOVE it. That is so my style.

I will do that...

thanks guys for all the helpful advice.

Now I just need to remember it and not freeze in the moment...