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View Full Version : He's ejected, now what?


lmsans
06-14-2007, 03:36 AM
OBR league college players with wood bats.
I am the BU.
After a bang bang at first, the HC comes out and asks me to appeal to PU on whether F3 foot was on the bag or not. I felt secure in my call and refused to appeal. I told him what I saw and he continued to ask for an appeal. After the 3rd time that he asked, I threw him out. Here's my problem, he comes to me nose to nose and starts telling me that he is not ready to leave or words to that affect. I didn't say anything, just stared into his eyes until my patner came out and separated us. It was probably only about 30 - 45 seconds, but seemed like an eternity.

At this level, what options do I have after ejecting?

BTW my partner told me if I did appeal he saw it different than me, but never let on because I didn't ask until we were in the parking lot.

Richard_Siegel
06-14-2007, 03:59 AM
OBR league college players with wood bats.
I am the BU.
After a bang bang at first, the HC comes out and asks me to appeal to PU on whether F3 foot was on the bag or not. I felt secure in my call and refused to appeal. I told him what I saw and he continued to ask for an appeal. After the 3rd time that he asked, I threw him out. Here's my problem, he comes to me nose to nose and starts telling me that he is not ready to leave or words to that affect. I didn't say anything, just stared into his eyes until my patner came out and separated us. It was probably only about 30 - 45 seconds, but seemed like an eternity.

At this level, what options do I have after ejecting?

BTW my partner told me if I did appeal he saw it different than me, but never let on because I didn't ask until we were in the parking lot.

Once you denied his request to get help, his repeated demand that you get help was out of line and ejectable. You never want to ask for help after you have already said you would not do it. That would be suicidal in such a situation. Good for you for not giving in to him. Once you ejected him he had to get "his money's worth" out of you. Once ejected an umpire has nothing more to say to the person. Let him rant, as long as he doesn't touch you. Staring him down was a good move, but some could see it as being defiant. (Nothing really wrong with that, IMO) Some guys will turn their back and walk away after the ejection. Walking away is good because when he follows you it shows him to be the aggressor and that you were trying to shut off the argument. Under the circumstances there was not much else you could do.

The worst thing you can do is escallate the situation by letting him drag you into further arguments and getting you to shout back.

Ozzy
06-14-2007, 12:21 PM
Larry,

You did a good job taking care of business. The only thing you could have done differently was turn and walk away (out to the grass, preferably). Now if the coach follows you, he's gone but everyone sees that he was chasing you. It may have avoided the "bad breath" discussion! God! I hate it when these tobacco chewing coaches get in your face! Anyway, this is the mechanic that I use because it is a "self ejection" when they chase me down.

lmsans
06-14-2007, 02:15 PM
I was just a few steps from B when he came out and never moved from there. I don't think I had any place else to go.

All the time I'm thinking "so this is what they say." and "I'm glad he's not chewing anything.

Thanks for the feedback Rich and Ozzy

lawump
06-14-2007, 02:44 PM
Frankly the only time I ever walk away from a coach who is "going off" is when I'm on dirt and I feel that there is a distinct possibility that some of that dirt is going to end up on my shined shoes and the bottom of my pants. In which case I will move to a position on grass away from the dirt.

JBowling
06-14-2007, 10:23 PM
If after you said you weren't going to get help and then do go to your partner, get together with your partner and tell your partner, "I'm just doing this to appease the coach, we're sticking with my call." And announce a second time what your call was.

brookspw
06-15-2007, 05:43 PM
First, let me say that I can fully understand an umpire's resistance to asking a partner for help when a coach is asking this way.

Second, I have to assume that players, umpires, coaches, and parents alike want the call to be correct.

Third, from the umpire's viewpoint -- (in the scenario that this post ets up) in what situations would you ask your partner for help, in what situations would you ask for help if prompted by a manager, etc?

What we have here is a jerk of a coach, but also a call that was not correct and one of the umpires knew it wasn't correct.

Richard_Siegel
06-15-2007, 06:02 PM
...I have to assume that players, umpires, coaches, and parents alike want the call to be correct.....

That is not really true. It is just a phrase a coach will throw out there when he challenges a call. Players, coaches, and parents alike want the call to favor their team. If a coach is unsure about a close call he will use the "get help" ploy as an attempt to get an umpire to ask his partner what he saw. If he can get the umpire to ask, what's the worse that can happen? Either the call will stand, or is some rare situations, the call might get reversed. It might get changed 11% of the time, but it doesn't cost any money to ask!

Many coaches figure what's the harm in asking? So they will give it a shot. When they see the umpire will not go for the ploy, most coaches will not ask again. If the umpire doas ask, the coach will surely request that he get help again, and again.... If the umpire finally stops getting help when has done so before, that can cause a coach to become irate. So for that reason, many umpires will not get help at all.

lmsans
06-15-2007, 06:13 PM
Let me be clear. I felt I had seen the play completely and didn't need any help. The throw to first was high. WHen F3 jumped and while he ws in the air BR foot hit the bag and then F3 came back down on the bag.

If I didn't feel I had seen it clearly, I would have asked for help.

But I think that is a good question, when is the right time to ask...after F3 asks? ...or the coach?

?but also a call that was not correct and one of the umpires knew it wasn't correct.

This was the tail end of a double play, so I was between B and first base with a real good angle. My partner was on the first base line. Why is my call wrong?

LMan
06-15-2007, 07:45 PM
Why is my call wrong?

..because "brookspw" just assumes the umpires are wrong. He'll make a great rat someday.


Your partner 'seeing it differently' doesnt make his view any more right than yours. Its additional information, but you did things right.

MSPChris
06-15-2007, 07:55 PM
I would ask for help if it were possible that partner may have had a different call, but only if i were anything but 100% sure of what I saw.

A manager asking me for help needs to be able to sell me on why he thinks my partner would have the call differently.

lmsans, if you thought your angle was good, and your view of the call was good. end of story.

BTW, if it all happened the way you describe, your PU partner is a jackass for even hinting you had it wrong. If the play was a banger, you're in B and he's near the plate, he's got no business saying anything at all even after the game unless you completely smoked the call.

Richard_Siegel
06-15-2007, 08:14 PM
The article below was written by, Tom Anstette, an umpire from Florida about 10 years ago for Brent McLarens Amatuer Umpire website. I don't agree with it 100% (maybe 97%) but for somebody who is new it is a very worthwhile item to read.

Asking for Help and Changing Calls

Too many times I see umpires make a call on a close play and the coach will come running out insisting on the umpires go get help from their partner. "Come on Blue, you need help on that, just ask your partner he had a better angle, he can help". Trying to be a nice guy, or perhaps being a little intimidated, you go to your partner for help.

MISTAKE!
First off, if you make a call, you are telling everyone that you saw the play, you've processed the information from the play and you made you're decision. If you weren't sure about something on the play and you don't have all the information you need to make your decision, you ask for help before you make your decision, remember it's still your call, you're only asking for help to get more information in order to make a decision. Don't throw your responsibilities on your partner.
If you ask for help just because the coach wants you to, you will be asked to go for help on every close play, by both coaches, all game long. If you constantly ask for help, you might as well leave the field, because your partner doesn't need you if he has to do your job also. Don't let the coach push you around, tell him or her that "I saw the play, I don't need any help, this is my call and the call stands" Whether your decision (judgment) was right or wrong, stick with it, if you change one call, the coaches will want you to change every call that they don't like. Also, when you change a call you have to deal with the other coach who now also has an argument with you.

Remember, you can change your own call in certain situations, but you must do it immediately. For example, if you make an out call, and your timing was to quick after the call you see the ball loose on the ground - change your own call immediately, get the play right. This is never going to look good, but you'll get the call right. Never, never make a call, think about it for a while and then change it, you will loose all your credibility.

Plays that you might need to ask for help, in order to get more information:
Swipe Tags

If in doubt - ask first - before you make any call. If you make a call, - any call - DON'T ASK!
On swipe calls you ask, "did he tag him?" Your partner should answer, "yes he did" or "no he didn't" and then you make your call: out or safe..
If you ask for help and can't get it - the runner is SAFE!! You will only be asking if you didn't see, or if you weren't sure of the tag. You can't penalize the runner for something you didn't see. NOTE: on swipe tags-up to the 3-foot lane, it is the plate umpire’s call.

Pulled Foot
On a pulled foot you ask, "Did he pull his foot?"
If you ask for help and can't get it - the runner is OUT!! You will only be asking if the ball beats the runner to the bag. You have to assume the fielder’s foot is on the bag until you know for sure that it wasn't

Batter hit by batted ball
Hit batter in the box (by batted ball) - immediate help should be given by your partner by calling "TIME!" or "FOUL!" depending on the way the league handles the call.

Plate Umpire - never ask for help in this situation. Base umpire should be yelling immediately if he saw batter get hit with a batted ball.
Coaches love to come out and want you to get help on this – Don’t Tell the coach "if my partner saw anything, he would have said something immediately."

Batter hit by pitched ball
Don't ask for help concerning batter being hit by a pitch, you (plate umpire) are 18" from the batter; your partner is 90' away.
Four considerations for giving or asking for help...
1. Never offer help unless your partner asks it for.
2. Only ask for help when you absolutely, positively need it.
3. If you kick the call - DON'T get your partner involved to try to fix it
4. Live and Die with your call

Four calls that can be legally and properly changed....
1. Calling a ball on a half-swing (check swing). On appeal or if you’re not sure of the call yourself - ask for help - change if necessary. Don't be afraid to ask for help, good idea to do so, takes pressure off catcher from coach. If you are going to ask step out from behind the catcher, yell to your partner loud and clear "Did he go?" ... no pre-planned responses from partner - Get the call right!!
If the batter made an attempt at the pitch point at batter & say "Yes he went!”
Strikes, outs and foul balls are forever and cannot be reversed. You never ask for help for them once they are called NEVER ask for help on a called or swinging strike.
Note: check swings have nothing to do with the wrists, the barrel of the bat, the hips, etc. The only thing that you consider is if you have judged that the batter tried to touch the pitch with is his bat.
2. Improper rules application. Example: if you partner awards wrong amount of bases - step in, privately confer with your partner and change the call
3. On tag plays only - loose ball situation your partner sees the balls on ground while you’re calling "OUT" (result of poor timing) move into the area quickly and straighten out the call.
4. Two umpires making simultaneous opposite calls. One call has to be changed immediately

Note: every safe call adds approximately 5 minutes to a half inning

A good pre-game conference, good communication and signals can eliminate almost all of these problem areas.

brookspw
06-15-2007, 08:35 PM
Why is my call wrong?

..because "brookspw" just assumes the umpires are wrong. He'll make a great rat someday.


Your partner 'seeing it differently' doesnt make his view any more right than yours. Its additional information, but you did things right.

I absolutely do not assume that umpires are wrong. Also, per a previous post, I DO want the call to be correct. I don't want an incorrect call to benefit my son's team OR vice versa. I want the call to reflect fact. I also realize that we are all human and that is not going to happen 100% of the time.

What I said about your call was this:
-- It would be difficult for you, from your angle, to see if the F3 pulled his foot slightly.
-- On the other hand, PU would have a good view of this.
-- You said that he told you privately that if you appealled that he'd call differently.
-- That doesn't make him right because he saw it differently. That could make him right because he did indeed have the angle that you did not.

-- MY POINT is that, regardless of tradition, being overuled, etc. the bottom line is that the right, correct call should be made regardless of implications.

That is all.

brookspw
06-15-2007, 08:41 PM
I understand the implications of changing a call or getting help, as he eloquently stated. However, the following statement implies that saving face is more important than having the correct call made: Whether your decision (judgment) was right or wrong, stick with it.

Dean
06-15-2007, 09:48 PM
Coaches love to come out and want you to get help on this – Don’t Tell the coach "if my partner saw anything, he would have said something immediately."

Did you mean: Coaches love to come out and want you to get help on this – Don’t. (:?: Added a period ) Tell the coach "if my partner saw anything, he would have said something immediately."?

MSPChris
06-15-2007, 10:42 PM
I understand the implications of changing a call or getting help, as he eloquently stated. However, the following statement implies that saving face is more important than having the correct call made: Whether your decision (judgment) was right or wrong, stick with it.

Well, you're judgment's wrong here -- so I guess you're stuck with it.

Author's point is as clear as can be. You're getting paid to make instant decisions to the best of your ability. If you decide that you need help from partners because you want to make sure you "get the call right", and you make this a habit, everyone on the field (including your partner) will wonder why the hell you're out there.

Most of them will wonder this very loudly.

cbfoulds
06-15-2007, 11:08 PM
<SNIP>

Second, I have to assume that players, umpires, coaches, and parents alike want the call to be correct.

<SNIP>

What we have here is a jerk of a coach, but also a call that was not correct and one of the umpires knew it wasn't correct.
1): Why do you "have to assume" that these people want the call "right? That assumption is contrary to reason and common sense - what these people want is for the call to favor their team: they are OK with the call being wrong, as long as it is wrong in their team's favor. The only people in the park with any interest at all in "getting it right" are the umpires.

2): Who says that the call was incorrect? The non-calling umpire had a different view: what proves that what he thought he saw was what actually happened? The fact that the team on the "bad" side of the call agreed w/ the non-call ump? See #1, above. I bet you dollars to donuts the other team agreed whole-heartedly with the call as made. See #1, above.

If, in the real world, coaches, players, and parents actually cared if the call was "right", as opposed to favorable to them, and acted upon that sentiment, umpires would be entirely unnecessary... but it is a fact of life that rats lie and cheat, which means job security for the umpiring profession.

brookspw
06-17-2007, 01:00 PM
I have played, coached, and "parented" a lot of baseball. I think most people want it to be right.

bigblue2u
06-19-2007, 07:42 PM
Sometimes a good response to a coach who wants you to go for help and you know you got a good look and got it right is: "Coach, explain to me why you think my partner got a better look at the play from 110 feet (or whatever distance seems appropriate) than I did from six"

Believe me, that resonse ends a lot of discussions.