Demoralizing Game

[Canadaump6]

I did a city league game today, semi-final in a midseason tournament, players aged 15 to 19. Had a situation I thought I'd ask for advice on.

Late in the game, runner on 2nd, stealing 3rd. Catcher makes a solid throw to third, which beats the runner there by 3 or 4 feet. Third baseman hesitates a split second before applying a swipe tag. By the time he tags the runner on the foot, the runner has just made it to the bad, so I call him safe. Good call.

Of course now everybody on the defensive team is all mad at me, when they don't realize that the third baseman was an idiot for not tagging the guy as soon as he caught the ball :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: . Some "oh come on's", "are you kidding me", "that was a bad call", "we got screwed on that one". Coach yells from his bench "are you a volunteer?" :lol: and "the runner is so shocked he can't even run anymore" 8O . The third baseman asks me something along the lines of "how was he safe on that play?" and I tell him "the runner touched the bag before you tagged him" :roll: , but I don't say anything other than that.

Third baseman throws the ball back to the pitcher. Then he says "let's get an out here to make up for that bad call". At that point I said "that's enough- from the entire team" :twisted: . I was going to eject on the next complaint I heard, especially if it came from either the third baseman or shortstop. I heard the third baseman whispering in between pitches, but I couldn't come close to hearing what he was whispering, so I had to let it go, but I sure wish he did it louder so I could toss him. I really do not like when people whisper :x .

I'm still pretty pee'd off about their reaction to my call. Why is it that an umpire who studies the rulebook :wink: , positioning and concentrates on making good judgement calls, makes a measly $22 :( for a 2 hour game, and makes a good call under pressure at third base, has to put up with this horse manure from the defensive team? I've seen MLB umpires get off easier after missing obvious calls :? . I guess life isn't always fair, but these types of situations really make me want to pull the trigger faster the next time I'm on the field. Do you guys think I handled the situation well?

[Richard_Siegel]

According to nickmotto, you should have asked the PU for help on the call since he might have had a better view of the call.

[bobjenkins]

Do you guys think I handled the situation well?

No.

You did an excellent job of overusing those "smilies", though.

[torch511]

If you saw the runner as safe, then he was safe. You can only call what you see, and if you call what you see, then you have called a good game.

Remember, 1/2 the people (players and spectators) are always mad at you. How much is irrelavent as is which half, since it will change many times during the course fo the game.

I would have ejected the 3B for the comment on the spot and not wait for another comment. If a player wants to be a smarta$$, he can do it from his living room couch.

[Welpe]

I want to comment on the whispering and whispering in general. My advice is don't try too hard to hear what they are saying if they are whispering between each other, you'll run into too many problems. I was 17 when I worked my first LL Seniors Game (15-16 year olds) and I went into that game knowing I had a lot to prove.

Unfortunately, I developed a case of the red @$$ and ejected a player in the second inning after a whisper that only I heard. He got caught in a run down and was tagged out between 2nd and 3rd. He sighed and all he said, barely above audible, was "Bull sh--". I heard it because he was running by me back to the dugout. I ran him and while I didn't hear much complaining, there was a lot more tension than necessary. That was the case of me looking for trouble. Do yourself a favor and don't develop rabbit ears.

[Richard_Siegel]

C6,

Seriously, it sounds like you are not being taken seriously by the players in the game. You probably have either an appearance or a reputation of being too young or too inexperienced. You are being tested and you seem to be failing. I can't imagine any players doing that in a game I would umpire. I would probably not run anybody, but I would be giving some very stern warning on the first hint of complaining by the players. You need to deal with these kinds of situation immediatey. Once you let them do that it is hard to stop it.

RBS

[MPDude8]

I want to comment on the whispering and whispering in general. My advice is don't try too hard to hear what they are saying if they are whispering between each other, you'll run into too many problems.

True. I was in a U19 game at the plate. I got called out on a pitch just above the letters, out of frustration I uttered, "Bullcrap" to myself. I said it loud enough that the umpire definitely heard. Even though I made sure not to swear, I like to think most umpires, especially at that level, ignore stupid comments made by players to themselves.

[Canadaump6]

Thanks for the responses on this topic guys. Richard Siegel makes a very interesting point, however I don't believe that it is entirely true.

I am a year older than the oldest players in the league, so I doubt age is much of an issue. This is my 6th year umpiring, so again I can't imagine anyone getting the reputation for me being inexperienced.

As for appearance, I really don't think I look that bad on the field. I wear the usual umpire's attire (minus the actual umpire's pants, but who can tell? :P ).

The thing about this league is that the behavior of many players has been bad for years. Umpires have been known to take a lot of abuse. The league is finally cracking down on it and issuing suspensions. One player got suspended for 3 games after he made a throwing motion directly at the base umpire, then threw the ball over his head. Another umpire was pushed and had a glove thrown at him. That player was kicked out of the league.

I believe that this is just a mouthy league. It may be time to start correcting behavior by issuing warnings sooner; Ozzy may diagree with that. On the other hand, one should give the players some leeway to express their frustrations. I dunno, should I toughen up a bit more?

[Richard_Siegel]

Thanks for the responses on this topic guys. Richard Siegel makes a very interesting point, however I don't believe that it is entirely true.

I am a year older than the oldest players in the league, so I doubt age is much of an issue. This is my 6th year umpiring, so again I can't imagine anyone getting the reputation for me being inexperienced.

As for appearance, I really don't think I look that bad on the field. I wear the usual umpire's attire (minus the actual umpire's pants, but who can tell? :P ).

The thing about this league is that the behavior of many players has been bad for years. Umpires have been known to take a lot of abuse. The league is finally cracking down on it and issuing suspensions. One player got suspended for 3 games after he made a throwing motion directly at the base umpire, then threw the ball over his head. Another umpire was pushed and had a glove thrown at him. That player was kicked out of the league.

I believe that this is just a mouthy league. It may be time to start correcting behavior by issuing warnings sooner; Ozzy may diagree with that. On the other hand, one should give the players some leeway to express their frustrations. I dunno, should I toughen up a bit more?

YOU know you have been umpiring for 6 years, but the coaches might not. They still see a kid about the same age as their players, not in a proper umpire uniform (you can tell imitation umpire pants from a km away!). If you are not dressed PERFECTLY you look like a pretend umpire. You can rationalize it all you want, but I am right.

Also, you still don't seem to get it. You wrote, "It may be time to start correcting behavior by issuing warnings sooner;" NO.... It is time to start EJECTING people sooner. E-J-E-C-T-I-N-G them, say that 10 times every day before you do a game. Warnings mean NOTHING to players. Warnings mean that each player gets one free shot at abusing you in each game. Is that what you want? When the word gets out that you are noiw ejecting players on their FIRST abusive comment the climate will get better. I can garuntee it. I have been there and I know it is true.

[nwarkblue]

And i can tell you, from personal experience, those free shots after warnings are given are not worth it. One of the more experienced umpires told me to start ejecting and see what would happen. Last year at this time I had about 10 or 12 ejections. So far this year only 3. Guess the word gets around you aren't going to take it.

[Dano]

Legion game being broadcast on our local radio station. I am PU and I can hear the guy in the booth doing the play by play.

Here comes the home team runner to the plate. The throw is to the first base side.

Runner slides and beats the swipe tag.

Unfortunately for the runner, he caught a cleat in the dirt IN FRONT of the plate and never touched the plate.

OUT.

Good thing the broadcaster didn't know my name or I would have had to call my house and tell my family to go into hiding.

:P

[archipelligo]

Pinella thought his runner was safe at third too, until he saw the replay, and now he going to sit out a while for bumping that nice young man who made the correct call.

[LMan]

I think C-dumpster did a fine job here. He remembered that he is not bigger than the game, and resisted ruining it with excessive and unwarranted ejections. He recalled that the players and fans were there to see a game, not to watch an egotistical umpire who's full of himself. The players/coaches were obviously unhappy with their poor caliber of play and vented just a little bit, quite reasonable under the circumstances. It happens to everyone sometimes, in an emotional ballgame.

It took a real man to understand that, see it in proper perspective, and not use the ejection option (which is a crutch for weak umpires).

Nice job, C-dump. Keep up the good work.

[jjb]

A number of years ago, we had a problem in out League. It seemed as if the parents and coaches felt that umpire abuse was "part of the game:, and that we should "take it" (exact quote, and from the Commissioner, no less). The response from the BOD was that the teams were "customers", and suspensions were delayed until "well, it's too late to do anything now". The result was that umpires started leaving in droves, for quieter territory. I was one of them.

A new BOD came in, and someone came up with the bright idea of asking the umpires why we didn't work here anymore. The result was a policy of "Zero Tolerence". We trained our umpires to, when it started to get out of hand, to (1) hold up your hand, and (2) use the phrase "I've heard enough". The next episode of UC, (our judgement), the umpire was REQUIRED to eject. The League Director would automatically suspend the coach, depending on how many times he was ejected during the season. (1st time in the season= 1 game. 2nd EJ= 3 games, 3rd EJ=DISBARRED FOREVER).

I have to tell you, there were a lot of confused coaches that first season, until they got the message. Some of our Problem Coaches either left on their own, or were directed to the nearest soccer field. The result? Peace has Broken Out Throughout the Land. The games are now determined by the players, the umpires are now more relaxed out there, and EJ's have plummeted. We now can let the minor venting go, because we know we can stop it before it gets out of hand.

[robcichon]

All except for this clip: ........................Coach yells from his bench "are you a volunteer?" ............

and letting him remain there. Dump him.
I think Rich may be on target here. You may have a credibility problem. Appearance means much in this business Canada... stereotyping is very common. If you look young people will associate that with inexperience. This may or may not be so but when an experienced rat couples this with the fact that he just got away with being personal on a call, he will likely repeat that behavior.

Remember to not leave a mess for someone else to clean up.
Dumping this guy is not being a Red @$$. He bought that ej.

[OzUmp]

I think C-dumpster did a fine job here. He remembered that he is not bigger than the game, and resisted ruining it with excessive and unwarranted ejections. It took a real man to understand that, see it in proper perspective, and not use the ejection option (which is a crutch for weak umpires).

Nice job, C-dump. Keep up the good work.

"

As for appearance, I really don't think I look that bad on the field. I wear the usual umpire's attire (minus the actual umpire's pants,

You don't wear pants on the field?? As I posted in another thread---THAT could be your problem right there! :wink:

[quote]but who can tell? :P ).

I bet the MILFs in the stands can!

[Canadaump6]

:(

I had another situation in today's game. 13-14 year old kids, house league again. This time it's just regular season.

The coaches from both teams got all mad at me because when a runner slid into second base, they asked for time and I didn't give it to them. It wasn't even dusty- the only reason they wanted time was so that they could get up without risking falling off the bag.

We called the game in the top of the 2nd inning due to lightening. Lightening struck, batter doubled, slid into second and asked for time. I called time, not because he asked for it, but because there was lightening. The coach goes "oh so now you're giving him time". :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

Both teams' coaches were whining about their runners not being given time and I told them it just slows the game down and takes the ball out of play so that bases cannot be advanced anymore. My partner actually thought that I was looking for trouble in not granting them time. What do you guys think? I read the Amateur Baseball Umpire site's articles and one of them said to never grant the runner time when he slides into a base.

Players expect to be babied so much these days. They ought to solve their own issues and learn how to stand up while staying in contact with the base :roll: .

[Richard_Siegel]

Often a runner is on ther ground touching the base and the fielder is standing over him with the ball waiting for him to lose contact with the bag as he gets up. So the runner just lays there and the fielder just stands there and nobody will move. The runner might ask for time. When that happens I say to the fielder, "OK throw it back to the pitcher or he's not going to get up." They always throw it back and nobody gets time.

When a runner slides in to the base and is very dusty, if he asks for time, after I check that no other runners are still on the move, I will give the runners time. If the fielder maks a bad throw back to the pitcher, it is too bad for the runners, they asked for the time out.

If a fielder asks for time as the ball has not come back to the infield I'll say no. But once the runners have all stopped and ball is on the infield, I'll give them time. It is one of the ways you can get a few seconds to relax yourself before the PU puts the ball back into play.

[Dragon29]

OK - I have only one thing to add to this. ('cause others have already commented on your lack of trousers)

I am a year older than the oldest players in the league, so I doubt age is much of an issue.

Wrong. As far as they're concerned, you should be playing. I think it's best if younger umpires are at least three years older than the oldest players in the game. Players have to be able to 'look up' to the umpire, and I don't mean physically. An umpire should command instant respect; if you look like you just put down the bat & glove, that's not going to happen unless you can repeatedly prove yourself to them.

Just my $.02!

[LMan]

Wrong. As far as they're concerned, if you were any good, you'd be playing, not umpiring.

Fixed that for you.





..and that's not an insult, its just that when players see an umpire that close to their own age out there, they figure he couldnt hack it as a player, so now he's just trying to stay on the field as an ump.

Hence, no respect. So, in reality, you started right off the bat with a disadvantage, Cdump. Now, to complete the picture, its only fair to note that the way you umpire causes/d the rest of the disrespect.

[Canadaump6]

Wrong. As far as they're concerned, if you were any good, you'd be playing, not umpiring.

Fixed that for you.





..and that's not an insult, its just that when players see an umpire that close to their own age out there, they figure he couldnt hack it as a player, so now he's just trying to stay on the field as an ump.

Hence, no respect. So, in reality, you started right off the bat with a disadvantage, Cdump. Now, to complete the picture, its only fair to note that the way you umpire causes/d the rest of the disrespect.

Actually I am still playing baseball. This is my second year in the adult league, and I will be trying out for my university's baseball team this fall. You are also clueless as to my ability to umpire as you've never seen me on a ball diamond before.

[Dragon29]

Wrong. As far as they're concerned, if you were any good, you'd be playing, not umpiring.

Fixed that for you.

..and that's not an insult, its just that when players see an umpire that close to their own age out there, they figure he couldnt hack it as a player, so now he's just trying to stay on the field as an ump.

Hence, no respect. So, in reality, you started right off the bat with a disadvantage, Cdump. Now, to complete the picture, its only fair to note that the way you umpire causes/d the rest of the disrespect.

Actually I am still playing baseball. This is my second year in the adult league, and I will be trying out for my university's baseball team this fall. You are also clueless as to my ability to umpire as you've never seen me on a ball diamond before.

C6 - While I can appreciate LMan's barbs without necessarily concurring wholeheartedly, please don't lose sight of the important aspect of what we both said. You start w/2 strikes. One because of your age; the second because, if you're still playing, what do you want to bet that at least some of the people at every game you umpire have seen you play - lately? I'm not saying you should stop umpiring those ages; that's your choice. But, I think it's important that you understand the picture you present when you walk on to the field. Unfortunately for you, you will simply have to work harder and be better than the other umpires to be taken seriously by these teams. It's not a knock on you, just an evaluation of the situation as you've described it.

[Canadaump6]

LMan and Dragon, you both make very good points about my age and playing experience. However I do feel that I have done a decent job of separating Cdump the Midget player from Cdump the Midget umpire, including disappearing from the Midget scene for a year so that people could forget about me. But while I can do my best to camoflauge with the rest of the umps, there is still that issue of familiarity that I need to keep in mind.

[ShoNuff]

As for appearance, I really don't think I look that bad on the field. I wear the usual umpire's attire (minus the actual umpire's pants, but who can tell? :P ).

You mention that you have been an umpire for six years but still do not have actual umpire pants, why not? As you progress to higher levels of ball that type of non-conformity becomes very noticeable.

[Ronbgone]

I had my first TWO ejections last night. The game was a good one, close, but I had a couple folks on one team that could only be described as Ghetto. Their comments were stupid and started to get personal. As the game progressed, the comments progressed. About the fifth inning, I had enough. Stopped play, called the coach out and told her to gain control of her parents. I then walked over and told the violator, one more derogatory word and she was gone. Her mouth opened, words came out and I ran her. Then a man started running his mouth about the ejection so he got ran. After the game, ole boy was waiting on me ... thought he was going to deliver a little bravado after the game. Like I said Ghetto. Course, once the game was over, and I left the field, I had to switch back over from umpire to police officer. Man was a breath away from a trip to the county jail. LOL.

[archipelligo]

off duty cops make good umpires, because they know how to not take any crap. But on the other hand, you can't get in the habit of running fans, unless they are profane or throwing stuff, they should be left alone, as difficult as that can be sometimes.

[ShoNuff]

I then walked over and told the violator, one more derogatory word and she was gone. Her mouth opened, words came out and I ran her. Then a man started running his mouth about the ejection so he got ran. After the game, ole boy was waiting on me ... thought he was going to deliver a little bravado after the game. Like I said Ghetto. Course, once the game was over, and I left the field, I had to switch back over from umpire to police officer. Man was a breath away from a trip to the county jail. LOL.

As good as a police officer as you may be, your umpiring skills need some improvement.

An umpire is in a no win situation when confronting fan/s. This type of action puts the spotlight on the fan and puts you in a location where other fans may jump on the bandwagon. Let the GA, TD or Coach take care of the fan/s.

You said that you went to the coach and asked her to deal with the fan. Let her take care of it. If she's unsuccessful, now is the time to inform the coach that the game will not be continued until the fan/s have left the area and if they do not leave, the game will be forfeited. Give the coach a reasonable amount of time to make this happen. If the fan refuses to leave, forfeit the game. Document this event.

[LMan]

off duty cops make good umpires, because they know how to not take any crap. But on the other hand, you can't get in the habit of running fans, unless they are profane or throwing stuff, they should be left alone, as difficult as that can be sometimes.

Youd think that...but ExCop on this forum can't seem to pull the trigger on ejections, and the active-duty officer I knew from my assoc (2 assocs ago in another state) was known as the most lenient umpire around....Weird.

Yeah, I rag on Cdump, but there was a kernel of advice in there. Umpire 'down' a few divisions/levels/ages while you get better at it, and then move up.

...and honestly, if you've been at this for 6 years and you still wont buy real umpire clothing, I have zero sympathy for your whining about 'disrespect.' Dress the part, or continue to suffer.

[Welpe]

[quote=archipelligo]off duty cops make good umpires, because they know how to not take any crap. But on the other hand, you can't get in the habit of running fans, unless they are profane or throwing stuff, they should be left alone, as difficult as that can be sometimes.

Youd think that...but ExCop on this forum can't seem to pull the trigger on ejections, and the active-duty officer I knew from my assoc (2 assocs ago in another state) was known as the most lenient umpire around....Weird.

There was an ASA Ump I used to work with that is a cop for a large city in the SF Bay Area. I noticed he was pretty lenient in his games and from what he told me, he dealt with that so much at work, he didn't want to as an umpire.

I can't say I blame him and if I were a cop, I doubt I'd want to be an umpire.

[Canadaump6]

Dress the part, or continue to suffer.

LMan, I tremble in fear over the thought of you not respecting me. In all honesty though, what makes you think you're in a position to decide and enforce what I should and shouldn't be wearing?

I have two pairs of perfectly good grey pants, one a size larger for when I do plate games. I'll ask around when I go to Dreams Park whether the umpires there can tell that I don't wear official umpire's pants. Besides, is it really worth spending $80 for a pair of plate ump's trousers, then another $80 for a pair of base ump's trousers, when what I have fits and looks perfectly fine? If I was making $10 000 or more per season off of umpiring alone, then yes I would consider wasting my money on them, just to please LMan and make him respect me. Sad to say, I am making about a third of that, so I'm afraid it's a no-go for anything really expensive.

[bobjenkins]

Dress the part, or continue to suffer.

LMan, I tremble in fear over the thought of you not respecting me. In all honesty though, what makes you think you're in a position to decide and enforce what I should and shouldn't be wearing?

I have two pairs of perfectly good grey pants, one a size larger for when I do plate games. I'll ask around when I go to Dreams Park whether the umpires there can tell that I don't wear official umpire's pants. Besides, is it really worth spending $80 for a pair of plate ump's trousers, then another $80 for a pair of base ump's trousers, when what I have fits and looks perfectly fine? If I was making $10 000 or more per season off of umpiring alone, then yes I would consider wasting my money on them, just to please LMan and make him respect me. Sad to say, I am making about a third of that, so I'm afraid it's a no-go for anything really expensive.

If you make $3300 umpiring, then you make about what I do umpiring. I can't tell you how many pants I have -- plate, base, heather gray, dark gray, etc.

[Richard_Siegel]

I can spot fake umpire pants from 40 meters away. The shade of grey of an umpire's pants is obviously unique and I have never seen everyday pants made in that shade. The dead give away is the belt. If you wear fake pants you are also a wearing improper skinny belt. Real umpires wear a belt that is 1.5 to 1.75 inches thick (3.80 to 4.45 cm). That belt is black and many wear a patent leather belt. Most pants made for everyday use would not have belt loops large enough for such a belt. The thick belt is a clear punctuation to a properly dressed umpire. Somebody spoke about the commanding appearance wearing a hat gives an umpire. I would say a proper belt does the same thing. Additionally, a thick belt gives you a little more protection from a wayward ball behind the plate. If you have ever been hit in the belt, then you know how well that thick belt can spread out the impact from a shot from the ball.

Even though they would never say it, and some would not even consciously realize why, but coaches notice "poser umpires" in fake uniforms. Going in, you have another strike against you, another obstacle to overcome in the coaches mind to show him you are skilled and properly trained when you show up in fake clothes.

Furthermore, guys with fake umpire pants don't realize it but pants made for everyday wear are not made from fabrics. and stitched in ways, that allow them to have the toughness and durability that real umpire pants have. I have worn out many pairs of regular pants. I have never worn out any pair of umpire pants. The fabric fades after too many washings and the constant exposure to the sun. That is when it is time to replace them. But I have used some pairs of umpire pants for several years.

You say it is a waste of money. I say it is the best investment you can make.

[killdump]

I agree with Richard on this one. I hate coming to my games and getting partnered with guys that don't have enough respect for themselves and the umpiring profession to at least dress the part. Not only does it make him look bad, it makes the guy working with him look bad, and the association that allows him to umpire look bad as well.

[SJC_Blue]

They don't cost $80.00 bucks a pair either.

[Richard_Siegel]

They don't cost $80.00 bucks a pair either.

Don't forget, he's talking Canadian dollars!

[t-rex]

According to Yahoo Finance, the current quote is 1 US Dollar for 1.0632 Canadian Dollars.

That means a pair of pants costing $80 USD would cost $85.06 CAD.

I may need to look into this further. It may be time go short CAD in my FX account.

[LMan]

Dress the part, or continue to suffer.

LMan, I tremble in fear over the thought of you not respecting me. In all honesty though, what makes you think you're in a position to decide and enforce what I should and shouldn't be wearing?



I don't have to be concerned with that, as if I would be. Its quite comical to imagine (briefly) that I'm worried over what one pretend-Smitty in Wal-Mart slacks deep in the bowels of Canada thinks.

Every whiny post you make about coaches and players yelling at you makes my point - THEY are enforcing the dress code through their disdain of you, its nothing I am doing. Baseball is self-policing that way.

They are the ones you should be concerned with, and yet, again and again you miss the issue by a county mile (or kilometer, perhaps). Hallmark of a good troll, I suppose. If you spent 1/3 as much time actually dressing well and polishing your skills, you might be closer to being the competent umpire you claim to want to be.

I do like the part about $3300 and can't afford pants. Your math and judgment skills are every bit as good as your umpiring.

[LMan]

Well, I have to amend what I posted about ExCop, he's apparently had the ejection 2-for-1 Special.


Cdump's still in the penalty box, however (lil hockey reference for him :wink: )

<snip>

Even though they would never say it, and some would not even consciously realize why, but coaches notice "poser umpires" in fake uniforms. Going in, you have another strike against you, another obstacle to overcome in the coaches mind to show him you are skilled and properly trained when you show up in fake clothes.

<snip>

You say it is a waste of money. I say it is the best investment you can make.

It's been said before, but the opposite is also true: show up in uniform, looking sharp, and the coaches (and players) start off respecting you. That respect is yours to lose, based on your calls and game management.

Case in point: My 15-year-old son started umpiring with me this season. He wasn't happy about the expense, but I made him buy his own shirts, Honigs combo pants, belt, and base shoes (OK, they're really black cleats, but they're NOT tennis shoes). I gave him a "real umpire" hat.

Having done all of 17 games or so with me, he now knows that when he walks on the field, the participants expect him to get the calls right, because he LOOKS like he knows what he's doing. When he kicks one (and he's kicked a few), the managers treat him with respect, instead of going ballistic.

He's also seen umps show up with khaki shorts, white tennies and blue t-shirts ... and he's seen how the coaches are ruthless to the "posers."

As I learned in boot camp - look sharp, be sharp!

[Canadaump6]

I'm wondering if a pair of pants that is advertised as good for both plate and bases would be a good purchase:

http://www.honigs.com/detail.asp?Cat=2&Sub=41&Item=158

Do you guys recommend getting just one that goes for both plate and bases? It's only about $50. There is a Honig's store in Hamilton, Ontario. I'm wondering how much shipping and handling would cost, or whether I should just pick them up in person if I ever get down to Hamilton.

[Richard_Siegel]

I'm wondering if a pair of pants that is advertised as good for both plate and bases would be a good purchase:

http://www.honigs.com/detail.asp?Cat=2&Sub=41&Item=158

Do you guys recommend getting just one that goes for both plate and bases? It's only about $50. There is a Honig's store in Hamilton, Ontario. I'm wondering how much shipping and handling would cost, or whether I should just pick them up in person if I ever get down to Hamilton.

ANY pair of real umpire pants is better than poser pants. The "combo" pants you describe are OK. Keep away from pletes. Pletes are for heavier bodies that need mo4re in the pants to acomodate buldge and room to move. In a slender frame they make you look 15 pounds heavier and non-athletic.

If you are very slender and have thin calves you might be able to go with base pants only. In my thinner days I was able to do that. Bring your shin guards with you to the store (if you go) when you try them on.

Member strikeoutchris has a post subject line: +POS PANTS For Sale in the Swap Shop forum.

[CoachBob]

Also, you still don't seem to get it. You wrote, "It may be time to start correcting behavior by issuing warnings sooner;" NO.... It is time to start EJECTING people sooner. E-J-E-C-T-I-N-G them, say that 10 times every day before you do a game. Warnings mean NOTHING to players. Warnings mean that each player gets one free shot at abusing you in each game. Is that what you want?

Richard,

Just 4 years removed from being a player, and in my second year of umpiring, I fear you have lost touch with the spirit of the game and the spirit of your job.

I read through this forum almost weekly and you comment on a lot of different issues and situations, and for the most part, as arrogant as you appear, you are correct. However, I have to disagree with you - strongly enough that I'm making my first post here in more than a year.

You may forget that kids sometimes have to drive an hour or two to get to a game. Sometimes family comes to the game to see their son/grandson/nephew play. And let's not forget that if it's any kind of league besides HS Ball, the kids are paying a good amount of dough to pay to play (including paying YOU).

Give the kids a chance. Chances are I'll never EJ a kid on a quick comment such as "How was he safe?" (unless it's something incredibly obscene or offensive directed at me or another player) because a lot of times, it's said without even thinking about it or really meaning it to be offensive. I think canadaump handled this situation excellent; he issued a warning, not a threat before things got way out of hand. If you go EJing kids on first whim, then you have now made yourself a part of the game where you shouldn't be.

In my opinion, as an umpire, I'm just an arbiter of the game. I've played from tee ball to varsity HS and assistant coached for my hometown freshman & varsity teams for a year each before umpiring last year. I don't know how long it's been since you've been in a dugout or watched your son/grandson/nephew play a game, but maybe if what you just said is your take on things, you should step back and rethink how you're handling things.

It's a game. A game that kids PAY and SACRAFICE to PLAY. And you shouldn't be depriving them of that unless it's absolutely necessary to do so.

I have little experience compared to most men in blue in this forum, but I hope that you'll atleast take a second or two to think about what I just wrote.

[BigUmp56]

Third baseman throws the ball back to the pitcher. Then he says "let's get an out here to make up for that bad call".


Coach Bob,


RBS was spot on in his assesment. This comment should have warranted an immediate ejection. I don't need to know how far they had to travel to play the game or how many family members they have in the stands. Fact is, I could care less. What I do care about is that they treat me with the same respect they should treat the game and themselves. If they don't know how to act it's not going to be my problem for very long.


Tim.

[LMan]

I have little experience compared to most men in blue in this forum, but I hope that you'll atleast take a second or two to think about what I just wrote.

Thought about it. Bob's wrong, Richard is correct.


Get back to us when you have more experience. You should have waited another year to make your post.


always fun to have more coaches instruct on umpiring

[Richard_Siegel]

Coach Bob,

I took a few seconds to think about what you wrote. In fact I thought about for over an hour and I have to say… you're full of crap. You know you didn't have to write that you have a lot of coaching and playing experience, it is clearly written between every line of your post. You come on an umpire's forum and call your "CoachBob" and expect to have credibility addressing umpire issues? You haven't yet umpired long enough to begin think like an umpire and get the coach's mentality out of your mind. In your case I fear it may never happen.

You asked how long it has been since I watched my son play in a game? Well it was yesterday. My son is 22 and he plays in a wood-bat league. When I go to his games I see plenty of bad umpiring but neither he, nor his teammates, nor do I say anything to the umpires when we disagree with their calls. My son is a carded umpire, so are a couple of others players and coaches on his team. They are players that think like umpires, you are an umpire that thinks like a coach.

You think I am arrogant in the attitude I describe about how I umpire. That is not arrogance, that is confidence. To label me as arrogant is typical what a coach or player would say and perceive. What you are seeing is that I am confident in the attitude I describe about how I umpire. I go about my business in a no-nonsense fashion because I know what I am doing and I allow very disrespect. I show complete respect to the coaches and players, I expect it back in return. I am not there to be anyone's best friend, or to make them feel good. I am there to enforce the rules an control the game.

You write that "It's a game. A game that kids PAY and SACRAFICE to PLAY." You're right, it is a game that they have also agreed to play BY THE RULES. One of those rules, 9.01(a), says The league president shall appoint one or more umpires to officiate at each league game. The umpires shall be responsible for the conduct of the game in accordance with these official rules and for maintaining discipline and order on the playing field during the game." See Bob, I'm just doing my job that (as you pointed out) they are "paying a good amount of dough" to me to do.

I should think that every player and coach who has ever walked onto a tee-ball field and beyond knows that if they are discourteous to an umpire they are likely to be ejected from the game. I should think that if the drive "an hour or two to get to a game," and bring grandma, grandpa and Aunt Ruthie, that these players should be ESPECIALLY carefully in what they say or do so they can reduce the chances that they would get tossed. Bob, are you saying that if a team comes from a great distance to play they just be given special dispensation from abusing the umpires? Drive 50+ miles allows you to curse at the umpire? Come 100+ miles allows you to can kick dirt on him. Drive 150+ miles and you get to spit on the umpire? I would imagine that the teams that come from allover the world to play at CDP would have nothing barred when it come to abuse of the umpires and there would be chaos there if we followed your philosophy.

Bob, I do agree with you on this point. You wrote, "you shouldn't be depriving them of (playing) unless it's absolutely necessary to do so." That is true. However, what you seem to think is "absolutely necessary" and what I think is absolutely necessary are two different things. If a player openly says something to criticize me, it is absolutely necessary that he be ejected from the game. I hope I am never the umpire that works a game for the teams right after you have had them. You will allow them to run wild and they'll be startled when I toss them for something the last ump let them get away with.

"You're making yourself part of the game," is just one of many crap lines that coaches say when they want to complain about the umpire but really have nothing to say. When you call the first pitch a ball or a strike, you have made yourself part of the game. There is no way for an umpire to not to make himself part of the game. If coaches and players knew the rules and didn't lie and cheat we wouldn't need umpires. So we will unfortunately always need umpires I'm afraid and unless every player strikes out missing every pitch, they will always be part of the game.

I umpire based on what the kids do on the field not how far they have come to play. To consider how far they have driven or if Aunt Ruthie is watching in the stands has come to see them play for the first time is ridiculous.

I give every kid a chance, one chance to behave properly, NOT one chance to abuse me. When they say the wrong thing they have used up their chance and they're done. I find it amusing that you have chosen to side with canadaump, a young umpire with just a few years of experience on this issue. Have you read all the posts from verteran umpires who have disagreed with canadaump? Maybe you need to think harder about who’s advice is the best.

One other thing that I agree with you about is the comment where you wrote, "I have little experience compared to most men in blue in this forum." That is very obviously true. When you have umpired over 1700 games as I have, and many other on this forum have, come back and address this issue again. Let's see if you fel the same way. I remember after I umpire for a couple years I thought I had the art of umpiring al figured out and I couldn't imagine why everyone thought it was so hard. I thought I knew all there was to know about umpiring back then. When I think back to have I was even after 5 or 6 years I cringe about some of the stupid things I did and said. I know I was bad to mediocre even into my 6th year. I wasn't until I attend one of many professional clinics and be came an instructor for my local association did begin to get better. I am still trying to get better.

Bob, as long as you call yourself and think of yourself as "CoachBob" you will never be able to think like an umpire should think. I suggest you take off another year and read all the posts and then you can try posting again.

RBS

[LMan]

Coach Bob,

I took a few seconds to think about what you wrote. In fact I thought about for over an hour and I have to say… you're full of crap.

Richard, you could have ended your post right there and saved some blood pressure :wink:

[Canadaump6]

Richard Siegel wrote:

you're full of crap.

Now I know I'm not a moderator, but I do not think this is the way we should be talking to fellow umpires, regardless of whether we disagree with them.

I believe that there is no right or wrong answer to handling the situation I just described. LMan said that I handled it well by not ejecting. Richard thought that I should have ejected much sooner. I'm still undecided on how yelling something such as "that's brutal" should be delt with, but I'm beginning to think that really shouldn't be tolerated. The whole "that's enough" stuff to warn them seems to get pretty old. They know they have said something they shouldn't have, so maybe they should just leave the game and like Richard said, not get any free shots at me. That game may have been one of the last times I let them get away with what they did. Of course there have been posters on here who have said that yelling "that's a bulls*** call" should not even get a warning. It seems like game management is something that varies from umpire to umpire, but players should always be aware that they can be ejected for something that implies too much disrespect.

And yes LMan I did see your avatar. Please realize that it is very rude to be sarcastic when somebody is asking for advice like I was. If you were just BSing me in your post a couple weeks back, that is very unprofessional of you to do, and is not something that is appropriate for a forum where umpires come to learn about rules and situations. Baseball is complicated enough, so there is no need to add to the confusion by saying something you do not actually mean.

[LMan]

LMan said that I handled it well by not ejecting.

Have you looked at my avatar lately?

[BigUmp56]

LMan said that I handled it well by not ejecting.

Have you looked at my avatar lately?

Thhhhhhwwwaaaaccckkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!


Tim.

[SocalBlue1]

LMan said that I handled it well by not ejecting.

Have you looked at my avatar lately?

Thhhhhhwwwaaaaccckkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!


Tim.

I have some good cheese to go with that whine ....

[ricka56]

LMan said that I handled it well by not ejecting.

Have you looked at my avatar lately?

Thhhhhhwwwaaaaccckkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!
The count is 3 and 0 to Lman. I wonder if he has the green light? Canadaump6 winds and delivers...

...Thhhhhhwwwaaaaccckkkkk!!!!!!!!

Oh my! A hanging curveball that Lman must have been sitting on...A Long drive to deep center field...That ball is outta here...A monster tape measure job... that ball still hasn't come down...I think he got all of that one.

[BigUmp56]

LMan said that I handled it well by not ejecting.

Have you looked at my avatar lately?

Thhhhhhwwwaaaaccckkkkk!!!!!!!!!!!!
The count is 3 and 0 to Lman. I wonder if he has the green light? Canadaump6 winds and delivers...

...Thhhhhhwwwaaaaccckkkkk!!!!!!!!

Oh my! A hanging curveball that Lman must have been sitting on...A Long drive to deep center field...That ball is outta here...A monster tape measure job... that ball still hasn't come down...I think he got all of that one.

Or, as Ozzy would say, "LMan drives it wicked faaahhh over the Monstahhhh."


Tim.

[Jim_Porter]

Of course there have been posters on here who have said that yelling "that's a bulls*** call" should not even get a warning. It seems like game management is something that varies from umpire to umpire
It's more like level to level. "That's a bull**** call," gets you an ejection if you're 16-years-old. If you're 22, you're merely voicing your opinion. The same is true for coaches -- except it is the age of their players that matters most.

Then there are exceptions. Former Major Leaguer Greg Gagne donated money to a church in Massachusetts for them to build a beautiful baseball facility. They named it after him -- Gagne Field. The church has a strict no-cussing policy for leagues that use their complex. So even the 48-and-over MSBL players would get tossed for swearing at themselves.

[Canadaump6]

Why does everyone think age means anything as to what kind of behavior an umpire should allow? I don't care how old the player is, inappropriate conduct is inappropriate conduct. We should not be treating people differently just because of their age. I realize that adults want to be respected and all, but the same level of respect should be expected from both adults and kids. Maybe I see things a bit differently because I'm not that old myself, but respect is respect no matter what the age may be.

As I've said before, I would probably even be a bit more lenient with younger kids, especially those under 12 who are still developing in terms of moral reasoning and abstract thinking ability. What is the point in traumatizing a kid who is still developing socially and intellectually?

[bamatazz]

Why does everyone think age means anything as to what kind of behavior an umpire should allow?

Age has EVERYTHING to do with it. There are cetain levels of baseball where certain "language" is and is not acceptable. High school ball, I hear a curse word that just he and I can hear, he gets a "watch your mouth" just loud enough for him to hear. He says one that more than a few people can hear, I am sorry but he is done. College age guys and older, that leash gets pretty long, because unless you know that the language is directed at you, and you better be pretty sure, I got nothing. You are right it is about respect, and if you go tossing just because of a curse word said under his breath, you will get NO RESPECT.

[BigUmp56]

. What is the point in traumatizing a kid who is still developing socially and intellectually?


I'm going to ignore the majority of your posts since it's already been asked and answered. The part of your post I snipped is telling. This attitude is indicative of some of the problems with kids today. We've grown soft as a society and too many parents, coaches, teachers, and other figures of authority in a childs life are too damned concerned about being PC. What ever happened to good old discipline? You know, step out of line and there were reprecussions for your actions. Now we have an umpire who's afraid he'll "traumatize" a kid by ejecting him for abusive or profane language. You don't need to show the kid up with the big finger ejection. But a simple-quiet ejection will at least send a message that the kind of behavior he's displayed is simply unacceptable. Then the next umpire won't have to clean up the mess.


Tim.

[Richard_Siegel]

. What is the point in traumatizing a kid who is still developing socially and intellectually?

As long as you feel is it worse to NOT eject a player who has crossed the line, then to eject him, because you think it will traumatize him you do not yet understand how to control a game. You will forever have these problems on the field until you forget about how bad little Johnny will feel after you eject him, and think about how good you'll feel for having done the right thing for the game, for your fellow umpires and for baseball.

[Jim_Porter]

I'm 6-feet 7-inches tall. When I bellow, I make 'em wet their pants. I guarantee they'll never do it again for the rest of their lives. Job done. :D

[ziggys141]

As I've said before, I would probably even be a bit more lenient with younger kids, especially those under 12 who are still developing in terms of moral reasoning and abstract thinking ability. What is the point in traumatizing a kid who is still developing socially and intellectually?

If you feel his social development is that big of a concern, it would be wrong of you not to correct it. Ejecting the player may aid in his moral, social and intellectual development, since he obviously hasn't learned his behavior is wrong.

See, got an EJ while still being PC!

Or maybe the little guy figures he can just get away with it because he's been allowed to over and over again because some ump doesn't want to traumatize him. :?

[archangel14]

I'm in my 8th year, of course still learning, and I look forward to Richard's posts/opinions ea time I check this site.
Though I cant say I agree with someone 100% of the time, I also cant recall the last time I disagreed with his advice or situation actions. I believe I am a better official (basketball and football also) because of his and other experienced officials advice. Thank you gentlemen..

[MrLevi]

That call at third, or anybase, when the ball beats the runner by a mile, is the cheapest call by all umpires.

If the fielder can't put a tag on a runner, he's safe.

[umpduck11]

That call at third, or anybase, when the ball beats the runner by a mile, is the cheapest call by all umpires.

If the fielder can't put a tag on a runner, he's safe.

Another Easter post......... :lol:

[gobama84]

That call at third, or anybase, when the ball beats the runner by a mile, is the cheapest call by all umpires.

If the fielder can't put a tag on a runner, he's safe.

This has been dead for almost a year. :?

[ExCop]

C6,

Seriously, it sounds like you are not being taken seriously by the players in the game. You probably have either an appearance or a reputation of being too young or too inexperienced. You are being tested and you seem to be failing. I can't imagine any players doing that in a game I would umpire. I would probably not run anybody, but I would be giving some very stern warning on the first hint of complaining by the players. You need to deal with these kinds of situation immediatey. Once you let them do that it is hard to stop it.

RBS

Well, shouldn't all those umpires who "make the easy call" share in the blame here? Richard - how many guys would never have called that IDB like you just did? And how much harder is it for the rest of us as a result?

Some of our difficulty comes from making tough calls that don't appear obvious to everyone else.

This guy did fine.

[Canadaump6]

I'm actually glad someone brought this thread up. I ended up the plate umpire for two of this team's games later in the year, and tossed captain rat in both of them. In the second game I did (playoff game facing elimination), I also tossed 2 players and it just so happened that they only had 7 left and had to forfeit the game. I'm sure there will be more ejections to follow if this idiot "coach" doesn't learn to shut his mouth and control his team.