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View Full Version : Massive Argument, Ejection, Postgame Problems


MPDude8
06-03-2007, 05:37 AM
Hello, I was umpiring a 10-11 year old game today in the field. There is a coach in this league (ironically, this is a CYO Catholic Youth game) that is known to be very unstable and who is known to lose control very easily. Early in the game, it was obvious the coach wasn't in a good mood. From the B position, I called his runner out at first because from my angle, it looked like the 1st baseman's foot was on the bag. Three coaches simultaneously run on the field to get in my face, in lieu of simply asking for an appeal. After the dust settles, I appeal to my partner, who indeed says the foot was off the bag. Then, we call both coaches over and give a very stern warning. As expected, the coaches blew us off.
In the final inning, there was a very close out/safe call at 3rd base. I, from the C position, called the runner out on a force play, but the 3rd base coach claimed the 3rd baseman never touched the base. The coach did not let it go for the rest of the inning. He told his runners, "2 outs, although if the umpire wasn't blind there'd only be 1." He threw his sunglasses and his hat down and whined like a baby for the next 5 minutes. I called time and told him he was "an inch away" from getting tossed. He responded, "I know I'm an inch away, but you were 10 feet away and still blew that call!"
So far, this has been nothing I can't handle. What happened after the game was something I had never experienced before as an official. After the final out, I quickly walked/jogged off the field to avoid confrontation. My partner handled the post-game duties then left quickly too. Suddenly, I hear the coach shout, "YEAH THATS RIGHT YOU BETTER RUN!" I stop and turn around as the coach is getting in my face, yelling yet again. After about 2-3 minutes I'm able to get away.
If this was high school or travel ball, I'd be irritated but not fuming. This was CYO 5th/6th grade, a league I do in order to relax from the intensity of select ball. The situation is hard to describe, you had to be there. It was obviously embarrassing for the other coaches fans on this team. It was so obvious the coach was out of line and he most definitely deserved an ejection.
My question is, what should I do at this point? If the coach had simply argued in-game, I'd obviously brush it off and not worry. Since he sought me out after the game, when I was obviously trying to leave the field quickly to avoid a confrontation, I feel he deserves punishment.

SocalBlue1
06-03-2007, 07:07 AM
Where to start?

1. "Three coaches simultaneously run on the field to get in my face". Where was your partner? He should have been right there to help.

2. There should have been three instant ejections. Instead you allowed all three to stay in game & paid for that all day (As did your partner).

3. "Threw his sunglasses .."? "Gave him a stern warning .." You quite simply let everyone walk all over you.

4. You LEFT YOUR PARTNER behind after the game? NEVER, EVER do that. Right or wrong, you are a team - always stay together.

You lost control over the game 5 seconds after you allowed the three stooges onto the field. Never, ever permit behavior of this type. Should the league tolerate this kind of activity go find somewhere else to umpire.

Take your partner & go find a decent clinic or two and learn how to handle game situations.

torch511
06-03-2007, 10:55 AM
~My question is, what should I do at this point? If the coach had simply argued in-game, I'd obviously brush it off and not worry. Since he sought me out after the game, when I was obviously trying to leave the field quickly to avoid a confrontation, I feel he deserves punishment.

The person who deserves punishment is you. If my partner EVER ran off the field and left me there alone... he would be begging that it was only the coach in his face. I might have to remember some of the more specialized Army training I have had. I assure you, police protection would not be enough.

YOU NEVER LEAVE YOUR PARTNER, EVER!

Please do yourself and other umpires a favor, and stay off the field until you get some proper training and develop some confidence in the rules and in your ability to control the game.

That will solve future problems, but for the current situation:

Run home to you mommy and tell her the big bad bully was bothering you.

Richard_Siegel
06-03-2007, 11:26 AM
MPdud,

You are a poor excuse for an umpire. You have done nothing right.

At the plate meeting you must always explain to the managers that, "If you have a question about a call will we be happy to answer questions from only YOU. Ask for time and only YOU may come out to ask." If you are rushed by more than one coach like in your situation, you immediately say, "I will speak with one man. Everybody else goes back to the bench." Then only the manager stays. If the others refuse to leave, you eject them.

BTW, how much dynamite is required for you to eject a coach? You allowed the coach to say and do at least five different offensively disrespectful things that are ejectable. I would be embarrassed to be your partner.

The coach did not let it go for the rest of the inning. He told his runners, "2 outs, although if the umpire wasn't blind there'd ...

You should NEVER have to ever say, "The coach did not let it go..." whenever you desribe an incident. When a discussion is over you tell the coach, "That's enough!" If he mentions it again, you eject him. It is that simple. You neve let coaches go on and on about ANYTHING.

If a coach describes you to anyone and the word "blind" is part of the sentence, he is ejected!

You have so much to learn about this job. Safes and outs are only part of the job. Knowing how to control a game and the idiot coaches that come with it is a big part too and you have no clue.

I suggest you try doing soccer, or take up fishing.

ExCop
06-03-2007, 12:07 PM
I noticed you just joined this forum today, and as a new guy myself I hope I'm not speaking out of turn.

These guys can be rough on folks, but a little voice in my head tells me they're also almost always right. One fellow here wrote that it is far more common to regret ejecting someone than NOT ejecting them!

Honestly, that sounds about right to me.

BTW, as a Catholic myself, I'd be ashamed. The CYO or chancery office should be made aware of how this coach is "corrupting the values of the youth in their pastoral care." CYOs are not a democracy. In my area, he'd be TOAST.

archipelligo
06-03-2007, 02:07 PM
Coaches with histories and bad reputations should last thru about 5 seconds of complaining, then get dumped, over and over and over until they either get the message, or get fired by whoever is in charge of coaches. You are obviously a new umpire, so it's a shame you had to learn the hard way, but my advice is to dump away until they get sick of you and STFU.

Will
06-03-2007, 02:41 PM
I agree, i would have ended it right away.

3 ran on and 3 ejections would have occurred.

If the team only has 3 coaches? Oh well, all 3 gone and we have a forfeit and you go home... Easy money.

MPDude8
06-03-2007, 02:59 PM
Yeah I understand. I've been doing this for 3 years. Just to clarify how I left the game, I did leave the field quickly as did my partner. By "post-game" duties he dropped the game balls, picked up his stuff, and left quickly as well. When the coach came back for more, we went at it together. I realize I can't abandon him.
Also, yes, I should have ejected all three, but I have a very long tolerance for normal arguing like what he did. Typical whining, yelling, etc, I usually ignore. Also, the last situation occurred in the bottom of the 7th, 2 outs. I figured I would let the last out come and get out of there instead of having to eject, wait 3 minutes, have to write him up, etc.

MPDude8
06-03-2007, 03:20 PM
Couple more things, I don't think I clarified everything:

-When the 3 coaches jumped me, my partner did run out to get them off.
-After they got off the field, they shut up for the rest of the game, besides a few comments here and there to themselves. The only other major problem was in the call at 3rd in the final inning. And there is no doubt if that was anything other than 2 outs in the 7th, it would have been an ejection. He's been dumped before and he'll be dumped again, I don't think tossing him there would have taught him a lesson.
-Again, I realize how I said it, it looks like I completely ran off on my partner. He and I actually did get off the field together, but quickly. When the coach kept it up, we turned around and went back together to handle him.

I know I didn't handle it right, but it was really my first time dealing with a coach like this. I've gone to a few clinics but the only way to learn when to eject is by doing games like this.

ricka56
06-03-2007, 03:34 PM
My take on this is that you're leaving a mess for the next crew to deal with. You having a "very long tolerance for normal arguing" is a problem. If this coach(s) have a reputation for bad behavior, then he/they should have been given a VERY SHORT leash and dumped at the first opportunity. Forget that he's not going to learn a lesson...maybe his players are willing to learn...this kind of behavior can not be tolerated, AT ALL.

MNBlue17
06-03-2007, 06:55 PM
Anytime people "rush" the field to argue a judgement call, put up the stop sign and VERY curtly tell them you won't discuss judgement calls. The ones that make it out to you get tossed. After that, assuming they still have coaches left, determine if the head manger remains or which assistant will become the active manager. Explain to him why you dumped the others and why it would be best for him for you not to have to do it again. Tell him that there's a way to discuss issues with you and that wasn't it. In the future, if he wants to discuss a call, fine, but he'd btter do it calmly, alone, and after asking for and receiving time.

Never, NEVER leave your partner after the game, even for a second. Jost don't.

Somebody else referred to the 3 P's of ejections. Personal, Profane, and Persistent. You let several personal comments go where you could have had an easily justifiable EJ. In fact, most, if not all, of your illustrations would be harder to justify NOT making the EJ than it would be to justify puling the trigger.

You handled a difficult situation really poorly, which probably helped contribute to the situation. Live and learn. You'll do better next time.

MPDude8
06-03-2007, 07:03 PM
Again, thanks for the responses. The main reason I was so reluctant to eject him was because it was a lame CYO league. I was definitely getting walked over, but it was his last game of the season in the final seconds of the game. For select/travel ball, I'm not nearly as lienenant. I just think dumping him in that situation would have caused more harm than good, he would have only been ejected for about 2 minutes, it was the last game so he wouldn't have been suspended, and he's known as a problem and apparently has been talked to several times, so he probably wouldn't have "seen the light". It was the hardest situation dealing with coaches I've had so far and it was surprising because CYO is generally laid back. But, it's a learning experience

SpokaneBlue
06-03-2007, 08:40 PM
MPD8...

It shouldn't matter how long a coach/manager/player is ejected. If they've done/said something worthy of being ejected they need to depart the field!!

I've ejected managers in the first inning (coming onto the field during play, made it personal and profane) as well as the last inning (coach charged me from 3rd and made it personal). Don't give a RAT the satisfaction of knowing he can bully you if it's late in the game.

LMan
06-03-2007, 08:48 PM
It's hard to know if these OPs are serious or not.

The main reason I was so reluctant to eject him was because it was a lame CYO league. I was definitely getting walked over, but it was his last game of the season in the final seconds of the game. For select/travel ball, I'm not nearly as lienenant. I just think dumping him in that situation would have caused more harm than good, he would have only been ejected for about 2 minutes, it was the last game so he wouldn't have been suspended, and he's known as a problem and apparently has been talked to several times, so he probably wouldn't have "seen the light".


So. What.

[/b]

Richard_Siegel
06-03-2007, 09:01 PM
CYOs are not a democracy. In my area, he'd be TOAST.

I am not a Catholic so you'll have to explain this to me. When you say, "he'd be TOAST." Do you mean damnation, or excommunication?

LMan
06-03-2007, 09:06 PM
MPdud,

You are a poor excuse for an umpire. You have done nothing right.

At the plate meeting you must always explain to the managers that, "If you have a question about a call will we be happy to answer questions from only YOU. Ask for time and only YOU may come out to ask." If you are rushed by more than one coach like in your situation, you immediately say, "I will speak with one man. Everybody else goes back to the bench." Then only the manager stays. If the others refuse to leave, you eject them.

BTW, how much dynamite is required for you to eject a coach? You allowed the coach to say and do at least five different offensively disrespectful things that are ejectable. I would be embarrassed to be your partner.

The coach did not let it go for the rest of the inning. He told his runners, "2 outs, although if the umpire wasn't blind there'd ...

You should NEVER have to ever say, "The coach did not let it go..." whenever you desribe an incident. When a discussion is over you tell the coach, "That's enough!" If he mentions it again, you eject him. It is that simple. You neve let coaches go on and on about ANYTHING.

If a coach describes you to anyone and the word "blind" is part of the sentence, he is ejected!

You have so much to learn about this job. Safes and outs are only part of the job. Knowing how to control a game and the idiot coaches that come with it is a big part too and you have no clue.

I suggest you try doing soccer, or take up fishing.


Richard! Wow! Nicely done 8)


i am not worthy

torch511
06-03-2007, 09:07 PM
I am not a Catholic so you'll have to explain this to me. When you say, "he'd be TOAST." Do you mean damnation, or excommunication?

Richard, are you forgetting?... This is the CATHOLIC church... as long as you pay your tithe, you will NEVER be excommunicated and the road to heaven is $ecured.

Ok Ok, seriously. I agree. Being from MA, and raised catholic I was part of the CYO. And since there are a lot of catholic schools that we service, I can tell you their conduct is exemplary. No such conduct would ever be tolerated.

MPDude8
06-03-2007, 09:10 PM
Yeah, no, CYO is unique in that it's baseball + morals. This guy is in deep trouble regardless of how many times he was ejected.

LMan
06-03-2007, 09:11 PM
I know this is a repeat of an oft-recited truism, but I've never had so much on-field trouble and disrespect as that between two religious/Christian Academy-type teams.

KenGibes
06-03-2007, 09:32 PM
CYOs are not a democracy. In my area, he'd be TOAST.

I am not a Catholic so you'll have to explain this to me. When you say, "he'd be TOAST." Do you mean damnation, or excommunication?

Rich,

ExCop meant exactly what he said. The Catholic Church is mysterious with many strange and inexplicable dogma-driven rites. One of them is the "Toasting Rite", a penance related ceremony where the member is lowered into a gigantic metal device between two sets of high-resistance wiring. Then electric current is run through the wiring causing them to glow red-hot. This lasts for 1-3 minutes until a timer pops and the member is ejected out of the device, at which time he is promptly buttered and/or jellied (depending on the mood of the priest performing the rite.)

Like the Rite of Exorcism, this is one of those things that the Catholic Church doesn't like to advertise.

But now you know....

MPDude8
06-03-2007, 09:54 PM
I know this is a repeat of an oft-recited truism, but I've never had so much on-field trouble and disrespect as that between two religious/Christian Academy-type teams.

I'd rather do public HS than private, just like after 2 years of CYO, I'd rather do select than deal with that crap.

umpduck11
06-04-2007, 02:04 AM
Again, thanks for the responses. The main reason I was so reluctant to eject him was because it was a lame CYO league. I was definitely getting walked over, but it was his last game of the season in the final seconds of the game. For select/travel ball, I'm not nearly as lienenant. I just think dumping him in that situation would have caused more harm than good, he would have only been ejected for about 2 minutes, it was the last game so he wouldn't have been suspended, and he's known as a problem and apparently has been talked to several times, so he probably wouldn't have "seen the light". It was the hardest situation dealing with coaches I've had so far and it was surprising because CYO is generally laid back. But, it's a learning experience

What difference does the type of league make ? None.
You got walked on because of your inability or perceived lack of desire to
put a stop to it.
2 minutes of ejection are better than not ejecting in this situation, last game of the season or not.
The more times an a$$ like this is ejected, the greater the chance that he'll not be brought back to coach.
I truly hope for your sake that it indeed was a learning experience.

Dragon29
06-05-2007, 06:23 PM
I am not a Catholic so you'll have to explain this to me. When you say, "he'd be TOAST." Do you mean damnation, or excommunication?

Richard, are you forgetting?... This is the CATHOLIC church... as long as you pay your tithe, you will NEVER be excommunicated and the road to heaven is $ecured.

Ok Ok, seriously. I agree. Being from MA, and raised catholic I was part of the CYO. And since there are a lot of catholic schools that we service, I can tell you their conduct is exemplary. No such conduct would ever be tolerated.

I'm not a Caholic, but have been coaching CYO basketball for six years now. I can assure you that this kind of behaviour on the part of a basketball coach would a) get him kicked out of the game; b) earn him a lengthy suspension (probably all season) & c) ensure he would no longer be a CYO coach for any sport. They simply wouldn't put up w/it around here.

jjb
06-05-2007, 09:19 PM
OK, MPD, you've been sufficiently (and appropriately) drawn and quartered on this forum. Consider this an experience from which to learn.

There's a children's book called "Give a Mouse a Cookie." The premise is that, if you give a mouse a cookie, he'll want a glass of milk. Give him a glass of milk, he'll want a story, and so on...

Coaches work the same way. If you let them whine, they'll throw their hats. Let them throw their hats, they'll run out on the field. If you let them run out on the field, they'll insult you after the game. Get my drift? If you had stopped them at the beginning, they wouldn't have been able to exacerbate their misbehavior for the later innings.

Experience will tell you where to draw the line. When they cross it, it's time to show them the door:the time left in the game doesn't matter. Forget about the League, the idea is to (1) get him out of your hair for that game, and (2) let him remember you the next time. Either way, your individual message has been sent.

cbfoulds
06-05-2007, 10:02 PM
OK, MPD, you've been sufficiently (and appropriately) drawn and quartered on this forum. Consider this an experience from which to learn.

There's a children's book called "Give a Mouse a Cookie." The premise is that, if you give a mouse a cookie, he'll want a glass of milk. Give him a glass of milk, he'll want a story, and so on...

Coaches work the same way. If you let them whine, they'll throw their hats. Let them throw their hats, they'll run out on the field. If you let them run out on the field, they'll insult you after the game. Get my drift? If you had stopped them at the beginning, they wouldn't have been able to exacerbate their misbehavior for the later innings.

Experience will tell you where to draw the line. When they cross it, it's time to show them the door:the time left in the game doesn't matter. Forget about the League, the idea is to (1) get him out of your hair for that game, and (2) let him remember you the next time. Either way, your individual message has been sent.
The Baseball version is "If you give a RAT some cheese..."