Scorekeeper/Umpire BOO Issues

[typikon]

This is somewhat related to issues in the last thread...

LL Majors game.

Tonight I was PU and home team put in a wrong batter came up in the 6th slot, let's call him Jones, with 2 outs, R3. He got a hit, run scored, Defense then appealed, saying that at the beginning of the inning, Kyle was subbed in for Jones and should have batted, so they got the out, wiped off the run... no issues there. ( I hope).

Then, in the next inning, the first batter up was Martin, actually the 8 slot batter (improper), who struck out. Defense said nothing. Then the 7 slot batter (8's twin brother) came up to bat, call him Loren, also now improper, and he also struck out. At this point, Martin should have come up to bat (again), right? But no. Instead they sent in Kyle (the guy in the 6 slot), who also was retired.

As all this was happening, the Defense was quietly watching, obviously ready to wipe away any hits, but there was a lot of chatter over in the Home team bench. The official scorekeeper was over there arguing with the bench coach... it was a mess.

So the NEXT inning, they were so confused that the Home team coach said he no longer had any idea who the next batter should be given the multiple violatios in the prior inning. So he asked the scorekeeper to check with me....

My first comment was to tell the Scorekeeper to stop "coaching" the Offense.

But then, since everyone was so so confused, I felt that the Coach was in essence asking for a rules interpretation. So I asked him who the last batter was (Kyle), and told him that the proper batter was Loren (again!) and I also asked the Defensive coach if he concurred.

It had gotten so confused and contentious, I felt it was best to straighten it out. But I wondered if my preventive umpiring was a rules violation.

[Rich_Ives]

This is somewhat related to issues in the last thread...

LL Majors game.

Tonight I was PU and home team put in a wrong batter came up in the 6th slot, let's call him Jones, with 2 outs, R3. He got a hit, run scored, Defense then appealed, saying that at the beginning of the inning, Kyle was subbed in for Jones and should have batted, so they got the out, wiped off the run... no issues there. ( I hope).

Then, in the next inning, the first batter up was Martin, actually the 8 slot batter (improper), who struck out. Defense said nothing. Then the 7 slot batter (8's twin brother) came up to bat, call him Loren, also now improper, and he also struck out. At this point, Martin should have come up to bat (again), right? But no. Instead they sent in Kyle (the guy in the 6 slot), who also was retired.

As all this was happening, the Defense was quietly watching, obviously ready to wipe away any hits, but there was a lot of chatter over in the Home team bench. The official scorekeeper was over there arguing with the bench coach... it was a mess.

So the NEXT inning, they were so confused that the Home team coach said he no longer had any idea who the next batter should be given the multiple violatios in the prior inning. So he asked the scorekeeper to check with me....

My first comment was to tell the Scorekeeper to stop "coaching" the Offense.

But then, since everyone was so so confused, I felt that the Coach was in essence asking for a rules interpretation. So I asked him who the last batter was (Kyle), and told him that the proper batter was Loren (again!) and I also asked the Defensive coach if he concurred.

It had gotten so confused and contentious, I felt it was best to straighten it out. But I wondered if my preventive umpiring was a rules violation.

You just got asked for a ruling. I think that's OK.

You should NOT have asked the other coach if concurred.

[typikon]

Confusing followup question:

What's the procedure for when an improper batter is retired to finish an inning? My partner felt that any appeal of that batter would need to happen before the Defensive players leave the field. But on second thought, it seems to me that the Defense could appeal before the next at bat by the other team?

Which is it? And is it a rule or an interp?

Sounds crazy, but I think if I were the Defense tonight, I would have done that in order to face weaker batters in the lineup.

[Richard_Siegel]

This is somewhat related to issues in the last thread...

LL Majors game.

Tonight I was PU and home team put in a wrong batter came up in the 6th slot, let's call him Jones, with 2 outs, R3. He got a hit, run scored, Defense then appealed, saying that at the beginning of the inning, Kyle was subbed in for Jones and should have batted, so they got the out, wiped off the run... no issues there. ( I hope).......

I'm not sure you even had a BOO situation at this point. What do you mean by "Kyle was subbed in for Jones and should have batted?" Does that mean that Kyle replaced Jones when that team was on defense in the previous half inning? Or, does that means it was announced that Kyle would pinch it hit for Jones?

If Kyle replaced Jones when that team was on defense, if Jones was a starter with re-entry then you have nothing but a re-entry unless there is mandatory playing time issue.

If it was announced that Kyle would pinch it hit for Jones and then he didn't I don't think that is a violation either because Kyle did not enter the game.

[jmurray]

Confusing followup question:

What's the procedure for when an improper batter is retired to finish an inning? My partner felt that any appeal of that batter would need to happen before the Defensive players leave the field. But on second thought, it seems to me that the Defense could appeal before the next at bat by the other team?

Which is it? And is it a rule or an interp?

Sounds crazy, but I think if I were the Defense tonight, I would have done that in order to face weaker batters in the lineup.


Since LL is OBR it would be next pitch, play or attempted play. So defense could appeal until their first batter took one pitch.

Your partner might be thinking FED rules.

Both are rules in the respective books.

[Rich_Ives]

Confusing followup question:

What's the procedure for when an improper batter is retired to finish an inning? My partner felt that any appeal of that batter would need to happen before the Defensive players leave the field. But on second thought, it seems to me that the Defense could appeal before the next at bat by the other team?

Which is it? And is it a rule or an interp?

Sounds crazy, but I think if I were the Defense tonight, I would have done that in order to face weaker batters in the lineup.

Prior to the next pitch to either team or before any play or attempted play. 6.07(b ) first sentence.

[typikon]

Prior to the next pitch to either team or before any play or attempted play. 6.07(b ) first sentence.

To either team? So once the Defense has left the field, their opportunity to appeal is over?

[typikon]

I'm not sure you even had a BOO situation at this point. What do you mean by "Kyle was subbed in for Jones and should have batted?" Does that mean that Kyle replaced Jones when that team was on defense in the previous half inning? Or, does that means it was announced that Kyle would pinch it hit for Jones?

If Kyle replaced Jones when that team was on defense, if Jones was a starter with re-entry then you have nothing but a re-entry unless there is mandatory playing time issue.

If it was announced that Kyle would pinch it hit for Jones and then he didn't I don't think that is a violation either because Kyle did not enter the game.

Great question. We do have a mandatory play situation as well, and I'm also a little fuzzy on how preventive I'm supposed to be.

I actually can't remember when I was told that Kyle was subbing for Jones. I'm fairly sure the coach likes to work in terms of whole innings, so he must have done it when his team took the field on defense.

In which case, in the absence of mandatory play requirements, this would be just an unanounced starter re-entering the lineup??

[Richard_Siegel]

Great question. We do have a mandatory play situation as well, and I'm also a little fuzzy on how preventive I'm supposed to be.

I actually can't remember when I was told that Kyle was subbing for Jones. I'm fairly sure the coach likes to work in terms of whole innings, so he must have done it when his team took the field on defense.

In which case, in the absence of mandatory play requirements, this would be just an unanounced starter re-entering the lineup??

Either you have an unanounced starter re-entering the lineup, or an annouced substitution that never happened. Nothing in both cases.

[typikon]

Either you have an unanounced starter re-entering the lineup, or an annouced substitution that never happened. Nothing in both cases.

I suppose this begs the question of how exactly a substitution is announced.

I am operating under a mishmash of guidance and local tradition, whereby the manager comes to me between innings and "announces" his substitutes. I thought that made it official. No so?

[Rich_Ives]

To either team? So once the Defense has left the field, their opportunity to appeal is over?

I guess you didn't bother to read the rule.

Yes, to either team.

No - not when the defense has left the field. Only after the first pitch to the next batter of either team.

6.07 (b) When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out, and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the first pitch to the next batter of either team, or before any play or attempted play, the umpire shall (1) declare the proper batter out; and (2) nullify any advance or score made because of a ball batted by the improper batter or because of the improper batter’s advance to first base on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter or otherwise.

[Rich_Ives]

I suppose this begs the question of how exactly a substitution is announced.

I am operating under a mishmash of guidance and local tradition, whereby the manager comes to me between innings and "announces" his substitutes. I thought that made it official. No so?

The answer is in the book - same as the 6.07 question. Try reading it sometime.

In OBR it's official when the manager tells the game UIC.

LL restricts when you can announce:

LL 3.03 6. Defensive substitutions must be made while the team is on defense. Offensive substitutions must be made at the time the offensive player has her/his turn at bat or is on base.

For either, see 3.08 for when an unannounced sub is official.

[typikon]

The answer is in the book - same as the 6.07 question. Try reading it sometime.

In OBR it's official when the manager tells the game UIC.

LL restricts when you can announce:

LL 3.03 6. Defensive substitutions must be made while the team is on defense. Offensive substitutions must be made at the time the offensive player has her/his turn at bat or is on base.

For either, see 3.08 for when an unannounced sub is official.

Thanks for your patience, yes, I wasn't reading the rule clearly. My bad.

This whole experience, however, brought home the need for better record-keeping on my part. Someone here forwarded to me a power point with a "system" for keeping track of all this stuff, but it was for Softball, and didn't really handle half a dozen otgher LL-specific stuff. I never see other umpires fussing with this stuff, so I must be making it too hard.

[mmp1]

In which case, in the absence of mandatory play requirements, this would be just an unanounced starter re-entering the lineup??

In LL Majors, the situation you describe - Kyle entered the game for Jones and played defense in the top half of the inning with Jones batting in the bottom half of the inning - is actually an illegal substitution, a violation of 3.03, which requires that Kyle play 6 consecutive defensive outs and bat once before Jones can re-enter. Note that the 3.03 requirement is not a mandatory play issue, it is a "since Jones can re-enter anywhere in the lineup, we're going to make him sit out for long enough that the manager can't game the system" issue.

According to the comments in the RIM, the method for dealing with an illegal substitution is quite draconian: 1. Jones is removed from the lineup for the rest of the game because he was not supposed to re-enter yet. 2. Kyle cannot come back into the game because he was substituted for and Jones, Kyle's sub, will never meet the 3.03 reqt of 6&1. So, in short, Kyle and Jones are done for the day. Except, if there are no eligible subs, other manager chooses someone to take the spot of Jones/Kyle (which could be Jones or Kyle).

[mmp1]

This whole experience, however, brought home the need for better record-keeping on my part. Someone here forwarded to me a power point with a "system" for keeping track of all this stuff, but it was for Softball, and didn't really handle half a dozen otgher LL-specific stuff. I never see other umpires fussing with this stuff, so I must be making it too hard.

If you don't see other umpires "fussing" with this stuff, they are either leaving it up to the scorekeeper or good at it.

I would recommend (for tracking the lineup):
When a player enters the game, write down their number and the inning (and outs if mid-inning) next to the player they are replacing.

When a starter is re-entering, check if their sub has played 6 consecutive defensive outs (typically just note that the current inning is at least 2 more than the inning when the sub went in for the starter).
The more difficult requirement to track is whether the sub has batted. You may recall their at-bat or, as I do, you can ask the manager (not always the best source of this info) or the scorekeeper - "Number 7 has already batted, right?"

Note that the 6&1 requirement is on the sub who replaced the starter, not the player being replaced by the starter (although they are often the same).

For extra credit you can ensure that the player leaving the game for a sub either:
1. is a starter who can re-enter the game later, or
2. has already met minimum play during the game. (3.03 Note 1)

[typikon]

In LL Majors, the situation you describe - Kyle entered the game for Jones and played defense in the top half of the inning with Jones batting in the bottom half of the inning - is actually an illegal substitution, a violation of 3.03, which requires that Kyle play 6 consecutive defensive outs and bat once before Jones can re-enter. Note that the 3.03 requirement is not a mandatory play issue, it is a "since Jones can re-enter anywhere in the lineup, we're going to make him sit out for long enough that the manager can't game the system" issue.

According to the comments in the RIM, the method for dealing with an illegal substitution is quite draconian: 1. Jones is removed from the lineup for the rest of the game because he was not supposed to re-enter yet. 2. Kyle cannot come back into the game because he was substituted for and Jones, Kyle's sub, will never meet the 3.03 reqt of 6&1. So, in short, Kyle and Jones are done for the day. Except, if there are no eligible subs, other manager chooses someone to take the spot of Jones/Kyle (which could be Jones or Kyle).

Great point. The RIM says the umpire should try to prevent illegal substitutions. But when Kyle came up to bat, nothing was said to me, I don't have the numbers or names of players memorized obviously. I assume that umpires are not pulling out their batter order with every new batter to check for unanounced substitutes?

Once he had batted, and the other manager pointed out the BOO, what SHOULD I have done?

[mmp1]

Great point. The RIM says the umpire should try to prevent illegal substitutions. But when Kyle came up to bat, nothing was said to me, I don't have the numbers or names of players memorized obviously. I assume that umpires are not pulling out their batter order with every new batter to check for unanounced substitutes?

Once he had batted, and the other manager pointed out the BOO, what SHOULD I have done?

I agree that you can't prevent an illegal substitution that you don't know about. :)

If going "by the book" you are left with what it says in the RIM. It is not BOO, so the play stands. Kyle and Jones are done for the day. Put in a sub and play on.

If you're feeling more generous, there are other avenues, but it is definitely not BOO since Kyle was not in the lineup when he came up to bat.

[KenGibes]

LL Majors game.

Tonight I was PU and home team put in a wrong batter came up in the 6th slot, let's call him Jones, with 2 outs, R3. He got a hit, run scored, Defense then appealed, saying that at the beginning of the inning, Kyle was subbed in for Jones and should have batted, so they got the out, wiped off the run... no issues there. ( I hope).

Did the substitution for Jones occur at the beginning of the inning (i.e., when the team was on defense) or at the beginning of the half-inning (i.e., when the team was up to bat)???

In LL, a substitution on offense doesn't occur until the player being substituted is due at bat. When a coach gives out substitution notices before the start of an at-bat half inning, it doesn't mean the substitutions have been made. This is a very important point in LL because of the use of the Special Pinch Runner.

So in the case above, if the substitution was given at the time the team was coming to bat, Jones was never officially substituted out. He simply came to bat and hit in his spot. In this case, there was no penalty.



Then, in the next inning, the first batter up was Martin, actually the 8 slot batter (improper), who struck out. Defense said nothing. Then the 7 slot batter (8's twin brother) came up to bat, call him Loren, also now improper, and he also struck out. At this point, Martin should have come up to bat (again), right? But no. Instead they sent in Kyle (the guy in the 6 slot), who also was retired.At this point, if BOO is appealed, Kyle is the out-of-order batter and whoever follows Loren is declared 'out'. All the wrong batters before Kyle don't matter because they weren't appealed. Loren's BOO was "legalized" since it wasn't appealed, so whoever should have batted following Loren is declared out. I believe that was Martin. So Martin is delcared out for the third out of the previous inning, and whoever follows Martin is due up to bat to start the next inning.

Again.. and this is important, this all happens only if the BOO is appealed before the next pitch or play. If it isn't, then there is no penalty and whoever follows Kyle (Loren) is due up to start the next inning.


As all this was happening, the Defense was quietly watching, obviously ready to wipe away any hits, but there was a lot of chatter over in the Home team bench. The official scorekeeper was over there arguing with the bench coach... it was a mess.Unfortunately, in lower levels it is common for the "official" scorekeeper to be unaware that he/she is not supposed to comment on out-of-order problems, but rather to simply keep a record (somehow) of who actually came to the plate and what they did. Once the official scorekeeper messes up and lets the cat out of the bag, though, you can't deny a BOO appeal based on that.


So the NEXT inning, they were so confused that the Home team coach said he no longer had any idea who the next batter should be given the multiple violatios in the prior inning. So he asked the scorekeeper to check with me....

My first comment was to tell the Scorekeeper to stop "coaching" the Offense.

But then, since everyone was so so confused, I felt that the Coach was in essence asking for a rules interpretation. So I asked him who the last batter was (Kyle), and told him that the proper batter was Loren (again!) and I also asked the Defensive coach if he concurred.

It had gotten so confused and contentious, I felt it was best to straighten it out. But I wondered if my preventive umpiring was a rules violation.If the BOO wasn't appealed prior to the next pitch or play, then Loren was, indeed, due up and you got it right.

[shotgunner]

That is why I wont do LL. I had this happen in a LL Seniors game. This cr@p simply does not happen in Pony program. Specially the older kids. OK it probably does, I just never saw it.