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View Full Version : Tie goes to the runner?


darronwlsn
03-08-2012, 01:56 PM
FED RULES - I've read all the posts about how their is no such thing as tie goes to the runner and the runner must reach the next base BEFORE a fielder tags the runner or holds the ball while touching the base. But as I read the following there seems to be two different standards depending on if the runner is a batter-runner or a base runner:

Runner - Rule 8-4-2-J: Any runner is out when he fails to reach the next base before a field either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base, after runner has been forced from the base he occupied.

No problem, the runner must reach prior to (so called tie goes to the defense).

However Rule 8-4-1-F :The batter-runner is out when after a dropped third strike or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter before the batter touches first or if any fielder while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first or touches first base with the ball BEFORE the batter-runner touches first base.

These seems to have the burden on the defense (so called tie goes to the runner).

What am I missing? Besides speeding the game up and giving the call to the defense.

semper_fi_72
03-08-2012, 02:07 PM
FED RULES - I've read all the posts about how their is no such thing as tie goes to the runner and the runner must reach the next base BEFORE a fielder tags the runner or holds the ball while touching the base. But as I read the following there seems to be two different standards depending on if the runner is a batter-runner or a base runner:

Runner - Rule 8-4-2-J: Any runner is out when he fails to reach the next base before a field either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base, after runner has been forced from the base he occupied.

No problem, the runner must reach prior to (so called tie goes to the defense).

However Rule 8-4-1-F :The batter-runner is out when after a dropped third strike or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter before the batter touches first or if any fielder while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first or touches first base with the ball BEFORE the batter-runner touches first base.

These seems to have the burden on the defense (so called tie goes to the runner).

What am I missing? Besides speeding the game up and giving the call to the defense.

I don't know what your missing!!!!!
There is no such thing as a tie.
Get that word out of your vocabulary.
The BR or runner must reach the base before he is tagged or forced out.
If you really think it is a tie, a tie is not beating the ball to the base.
When in doubt bang em out.

darronwlsn
03-08-2012, 02:20 PM
Semper - I shouldn't have used "tie" as the runner is either out or safe.

My question goes to R-8-4-1-F

The batter-runner is out when after a dropped third strike or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter BEFORE the batter touches first or if any fielder while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first or touches first base with the ball BEFORE the batter-runner touches first base.

To me there appears to be two different standards used. One standard is for a batter-runner (R-8-4-1-r) and one is for a forced base runner (8-4-2-J)

sdix00
03-08-2012, 02:57 PM
@darronwlsn

It is a fair question. I will point you to a thread that will help with the disparity you have correctly identified in the rule.

http://umpire.org/vb/showthread.php?t=10145&page=1

This is what I learned.

Here is the TL;DR version:

1. Once upon a time, the OBR read one way for the BR and another way for a forced runner. The OBR recently fixed that and the two rules read the same.

2. NFHS has not made the same change.

3. None of that matters, because:

4. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle) says ties are impossible.

5. However, when two events occur within .04 seconds of each other, the human eye cannot discern which event occurred first. The Army study is cited in an article by Peter Osborne and exists behind the pay wall at Officiating.com.

6. So, there IS such a thing as a "perceived" tie, however proper game management dictates that the umpire acknowledge that even though 'perceived ties' are possible, real ties are not. If he fails to acknowledge this, he cannot maintain consistency in his calls.

7. Your partner, both coaches, the fat guy watching on his TV at home, all expect you to call the runner out. They may groan, but it certainly won't surprise them.


From Carl Chilress's outstanding Baseball Umpire's Encyclopedia ($17 @ Amazon)
Editorial consultant for Referee magazine, Jay Miner, once argued convincingly that the biggest blunder
umpires make is failure to call outs at first. Blaine Gallant the former umpire-in-chief for the province of Nova
Scotia, once quoted on Officiating.com an MLB study that showed more than 90% of perceived ties are revealed
as "outs" when put under the microscope of the camera and computer.

Rich_Ives
03-08-2012, 03:06 PM
@darronwlsn


7. both coaches, the fat guy watching on his TV at home, all expect you to call the runner out.

No they don't. That's why they yell "tie goes to the runner". DOH!

sdix00
03-08-2012, 03:15 PM
#8. HOPE, PRAY that Rich Ives is not the 1BC. If he is, say "Please refer to Heisenberg's Principle". If he is not the 1BC, say "Ball beat the runner."


;)

darronwlsn
03-08-2012, 03:21 PM
SDIX - Thank you for the back round on OBR and how they fixed the discrepancy and hopefully FED will make the correction soon. I also googled H.U.P.

I just found this in Fed and this will close the book on my question:

There is a note at the very end of Rule 8-1 that states "NOTE - Unless awarded first base as above, a better-runner is entitled to first base only if he reaches it BEFORE being tagged out or thrown out."

This wording is in complete contradiction to 8-4-1-F but I'll take it.

Bottom line - if the Batter-Runner or Base Runner doesn't beat it - "He Gone!"

Ozzy
03-08-2012, 03:47 PM
SDIX - Thank you for the back round on OBR and how they fixed the discrepancy and hopefully FED will make the correction soon. I also googled H.U.P.

I just found this in Fed and this will close the book on my question:

There is a note at the very end of Rule 8-1 that states "NOTE - Unless awarded first base as above, a better-runner is entitled to first base only if he reaches it BEFORE being tagged out or thrown out."

This wording is in complete contradiction to 8-4-1-F but I'll take it.

Bottom line - if the Batter-Runner or Base Runner doesn't beat it - "He Gone!"
Please read the following 3 instructions:


There are no ties in base running.
If there is a tie, the tie goes to the umpire.
If the tie goes to the umpire, then the runner didn't prove to the umpire that he attained the base before the defense got him.

Add to this:
Never, never never listen to coaches when they try to tell you your job!

Rich_Ives
03-08-2012, 07:05 PM
Any good propoganda guru will tell you that if a lie is told often enough people will believe it's the truth.

The "tie is a lie" thought has been propogated often enough.

It's been pounded in so well that, faced with irrefutable proof, the denial instinct starts devising a reason for it to be true even when it's not.

So you might want to step back and examine your thought process - not just on this subject but on other pearls of wisdom out there in the wild.

Ozzy
03-08-2012, 09:15 PM
Any good propoganda guru will tell you that if a lie is told often enough people will believe it's the truth.

The "tie is a lie" thought has been propogated often enough.

It's been pounded in so well that, faced with irrefutable proof, the denial instinct starts devising a reason for it to be true even when it's not.

So you might want to step back and examine your thought process - not just on this subject but on other pearls of wisdom out there in the wild.
I like that.... "a tie is a lie".

ump_24
03-08-2012, 10:36 PM
4. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle) says ties are impossible.

Dude, major points for incorporating the HUP into a discussion about umpiring.

Well played, Mauer.

mcmahm34
03-09-2012, 02:00 AM
I believe the hands are apart of the bat too...:rolleyes:

heyblue26
03-09-2012, 02:49 AM
I believe the hands are apart of the bat too...:rolleyes:

Yes we all do not really but most fans and coaches think so just like hey "Mr Umpire" the tie goes to the runner yea right. Its either the runner has beaten the throw or the ball has been dropped or they have made or failed to make the tag and is safe or tagged out.


So I agree the tie goes to the umpire "You're out and your ugly too"

Good posted question.

Rich_Ives
03-09-2012, 03:17 AM
I believe the hands are apart of the bat too...:rolleyes:

Yep they're apart of the bat but not a part of the bat. :rolleyes:

Rich_Ives
03-09-2012, 03:20 AM
Its either the runner has beaten the throw or the ball has been dropped or they have made or failed to make the tag and is safe or tagged out.


Wrong. The throw has to beat the runner. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

I guess your response is a QED for me.

heyblue26
03-09-2012, 11:26 AM
Wrong. The throw has to beat the runner. Why is this so hard to comprehend?

I guess your response is a QED for me.

Ok so I phased it wrong nothing hard to comprehend. Yea the throw has to beat the runner
and if it doesn't then he is safe.

mbyron
03-09-2012, 01:41 PM
4. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle) says ties are impossible.


Disagree: at most it might say that they're undetectable.

We just don't have enough umpires concerned about whether baseball is consistent with quantum mechanics. :rolleyes:

sdix00
03-09-2012, 02:45 PM
Disagree: at most it might say that they're undetectable.

We just don't have enough umpires concerned about whether baseball is consistent with quantum mechanics. :rolleyes:

Baseball is not consistent with Quantum Mechanics, or much of anything else let alone itself, for that matter.

As a legal document, the rule book is a joke.

If there were consistency in baseball, then a tie would go to the runner, just like the rule says it does. :lol:

johnnyg08
03-09-2012, 03:00 PM
If the human eye were good enough to determine a tie or not, then I would agree with you. Study after study has proven that the human eye can't determine that, so the consistent call there is out if you can't tell.

grayhawk
03-09-2012, 09:03 PM
It's really not a question of whether it was a tie or not. We, as umpires, simply must train ourselves to account for the difference between the speed of light and the speed of sound. We only think the runner beat the ball because we are SEEING the foot touch the bag but are LISTENING for the ball to pop the glove. That .00000000000000000001 second discrepency will get you every time and you must adjust!

Each of you has a chart of the speed of sound at the altitude for each field in which you work, don't you? It's an advanced mechanic. I hear it will be in the next edition of the CCA manual.

johnnyg08
03-09-2012, 11:00 PM
When it is that close, the proper consistent call is out. If it's not that close, he beat the play and then BR is safe.

boyinr
03-10-2012, 01:08 AM
Dude, major points for incorporating the HUP into a discussion about umpiring.

Well played, Mauer.

I just figured out that sdix is also Dr. Sheldon Cooper

Rich_Ives
03-10-2012, 02:25 AM
When it is that close, the proper consistent call is out.

Why?????????


(Wouldn't let me enter the message with only one ?)

heyblue26
03-11-2012, 10:56 AM
Baseball is not consistent with Quantum Mechanics, or much of anything else let alone itself, for that matter.

As a legal document, the rule book is a joke.

If there were consistency in baseball, then a tie would go to the runner, just like the rule says it does. :lol:


We all or I should the majority of us umpires know what you have said and may agree to that. The rule book is written so complicated just like the laws and rules of the IRS.

semperfiguy
03-11-2012, 11:38 PM
Im with Ozzie on this one. Bang him out and feel confident in your call. Often times coaches try and tell you what your job is. Funny, I never tell them when its time for a suicide squeeze!!!!



Balls and strikes Baby!!!

heyblue26
03-12-2012, 12:30 AM
Im with Ozzie on this one. Bang him out and feel confident in your call. Often times coaches try and tell you what your job is. Funny, I never tell them when its time for a suicide squeeze!!!!



Balls and strikes Baby!!!

Do the coaches still teach that and practice it. We use to do it all the time in my playing days. It got us some runs. 1965 Oregon Legion State Champions

kyle_jt
03-12-2012, 03:37 AM
Shall I bring up the advanced thinking (I know this is the Newbie section) of using what players did leading up to this perceived "tie" (booted ball, hell of a bunt, Jeter-esque gymnastics), and factoring that into the equation?

Probably not, as it will surely make some heads explode. Maybe only guys who wear a plate coat should consider that sort o' stuff. ;)

cajunyankee
03-12-2012, 12:26 PM
Shall I bring up the advanced thinking ( I know this is the Newbie section) of using what players did leading up to this perceived "tie"(booted ball, hell of a bunt, Jeter-esque gymnastics), and factoring that into the equation?

Probably not, as it will surely make some heads explode. Only guys how wear a plate coat should consider that sort o' stuff. ;)

No. Please don't.

semper_fi_72
03-12-2012, 04:34 PM
It's really not a question of whether it was a tie or not. We, as umpires, simply must train ourselves to account for the difference between the speed of light and the speed of sound. We only think the runner beat the ball because we are SEEING the foot touch the bag but are LISTENING for the ball to pop the glove. That .00000000000000000001 second discrepency will get you every time and you must adjust!

Each of you has a chart of the speed of sound at the altitude for each field in which you work, don't you? It's an advanced mechanic. I hear it will be in the next edition of the CCA manual.

Since SWMBO tells me I am deaf and coaches, mangers and players tell me I am blind, I guess I am screwed ;)

cyclone
03-12-2012, 07:34 PM
Wrong. The throw has to beat the runner. Why is this so hard to comprehend?



Wrong, The touch or tag has to occur before the runner touches the bag.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

pluggy
03-12-2012, 08:44 PM
Wrong, The touch or tag has to occur before the runner touches the bag.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?


Cyclone - it's the other way around. The runner has to beat the throw or tag. If he doesn't beat it, he is out.

Rule 8-2-2 "BR is entitled to first base only if he reaches it BEFORE being tagged or thrown out"

Rule 8-4-2j "Runner is out if he fails to reach the next base BEFORE a fielder either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base after runner has been forced from the base he occupied"

B

mturman
03-12-2012, 09:36 PM
Cyclone - it's the other way around. The runner has to beat the throw or tag. If he doesn't beat it, he is out.

Rule 8-2-2 "BR is entitled to first base only if he reaches it BEFORE being tagged or thrown out"

Rule 8-4-2j "Runner is out if he fails to reach the next base BEFORE a fielder either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base after runner has been forced from the base he occupied"

B

Good comment Pluggy...

It may seem that this is a semantics issue...However, these are often the issues that coaches, parents and players look for in order to gain an upper hand on their rants, appeals, etc.

It's important to not only be familiar with the rules, but what they actually say / read...When we open the door for small adjustments, the chink in the armor is made...Over time we will relax more and ultimately, we have a game officialed by personal opinion and not the rules.

Know the rules, and when challenged, be ready to state the rules AS THEY ARE WRITTEN, without embelishment...

That is our job...

Aloha,
Mike

cyclone
03-13-2012, 12:43 AM
Cyclone - it's the other way around. The runner has to beat the throw or tag. If he doesn't beat it, he is out.

B
At first base:
A batter is out when-
6.05(j) "After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base."

Doesn't say anything about a "throw". Never has to my knowledge. Which is what I was correcting.

If there were such a thing as "the same time" i.e. the 'T' word...The touch or tag did not occur "before"..

Any runner is out when-
7.08 (e) "He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base.."


Again, if there were such a thing as "the same time" i.e. the 'T' word the runner did not "reach before" the tag or touch.


I take it as the onus is on the defense at first base on a batter/runner only, and on the offense (runner) at all other bases including retreats to first.

cyclone
03-13-2012, 12:51 AM
So is it really different in NFHS?

johnnyg08
03-13-2012, 12:56 AM
No, don't over think it if you want to move up. The call on "those plays" has to be consistently "out."

mturman
03-13-2012, 01:16 AM
I must admit to some difficulty understanding how this particular string has lasted so long...Honestly, for those that continue to inquire for "clarification" or some form of closure...How many ties have you seen...And when you seen them (as you may think you have) what did you do...Consult video, ask your partner or just Ump up and make the call, right or wrong...

That's why we call them bangers...They happen so fast they just explode...It's one of sooo many plays...

Make the call, move on...Let's play ball coach...Afterall, as much as they might want to, they can't argue a judgement call...Yes they do, and then its "Let's play ball coach OR, we will play without you."

Aloha,
Mike

bobjenkins
03-13-2012, 01:46 AM
At first base:
A batter is out when-
6.05(j) "After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base."

Doesn't say anything about a "throw". Never has to my knowledge. Which is what I was correcting.

If there were such a thing as "the same time" i.e. the 'T' word...The touch or tag did not occur "before"..

Any runner is out when-
7.08 (e) "He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base.."


Again, if there were such a thing as "the same time" i.e. the 'T' word the runner did not "reach before" the tag or touch.


I take it as the onus is on the defense at first base on a batter/runner only, and on the offense (runner) at all other bases including retreats to first.

7.08e was changed a couple of years ago to be consistent with 6.05j. And, the consistent literal reading is that the tie goes to the runner.

FED is, I think, the same.

johnnyg08
03-13-2012, 01:54 AM
7.08e was changed a couple of years ago to be consistent with 6.05j. And, the consistent literal reading is that the tie goes to the runner.

FED is, I think, the same.

Except that the human eye can't determine a tie no matter how good you think you are. In fact by replay you're likely to be wrong if you call safe on "those" plays.

bobjenkins
03-13-2012, 12:39 PM
Except that the human eye can't determine a tie no matter how good you think you are.

I made no claim to the contrary. I was only pointing out that if we want to discuss how to rule on such a play, we should use the current rules and not those (which conflicted) from several years ago.

cyclone
03-13-2012, 12:49 PM
Except that the human eye can't determine a tie no matter how good you think you are. In fact by replay you're likely to be wrong if you call safe on "those" plays.


True, but your brain will definitely process the information if trained correctly. Read, Pause, React. I see too many U1's trying to "Beat the Crowd" with their calls and clenching a fist before the ball is even secured by F3.

pluggy
03-13-2012, 02:04 PM
Cyclone - I would agree that the wording in FED is a little confusing and may seem to contradict itself, but you need to look at several rules and mesh them together in order to get it correct on this one.

On a play at 1B as worded in 8-4-1f "the batter runner is out if the fielder touches the batter before the batter touches first." It doesn't say that the runner is safe.

So we need to look elsewhere for more clarification and that's where the NOTE at the end of 8-2-2 comes in and it states "Unless awarded first base as above, a batter runner is entitled to first base ONLY if he he reaches it BEFORE being tagged out or thrown out."

I'm not sure how OBR words it but as for FED the confusion of their wording is cleared up in reading both rules together.

cyclone
03-13-2012, 02:54 PM
Cyclone -
On a play at 1B as worded in 8-4-1f "the batter runner is out if the fielder touches the batter before the batter touches first." It doesn't say that the runner is safe.


This one states that the tag/touch has to occur "before" for an out.


So we need to look elsewhere for more clarification and that's where the NOTE at the end of 8-2-2 comes in and it states "Unless awarded first base as above, a batter runner is entitled to first base ONLY if he he reaches it BEFORE being tagged out or thrown out."


This one has the B/R reaching 1st "before" for a safe call (entitlement)..ONLY if this happens.

johnnyg08
03-13-2012, 02:55 PM
I made no claim to the contrary. I was only pointing out that if we want to discuss how to rule on such a play, we should use the current rules and not those (which conflicted) from several years ago.

Agree.

wayne37
03-13-2012, 06:21 PM
They are either out or safe. Your job is to determine the call. Nothing more, nothing less. I thought the wording had changed the last couple years. Just wasn't sure of the language.

heyblue26
03-16-2012, 10:53 AM
They are either out or safe. Your job is to determine the call. Nothing more, nothing less. I thought the wording had changed the last couple years. Just wasn't sure of the language.

Some things just get confusing at times. Its when the change the wording or add something new that they want to experiment with. But as you have said just wasn't sure of the language.

cajunyankee
03-16-2012, 12:32 PM
4 pages of 'Does the tie go to the runner'. Really? Really?

Be in proper position, get set, see the play, read, pause, react.

Make the damn call.

Jeez.

dash_riprock
03-16-2012, 12:57 PM
4 pages of 'Does the tie go to the runner'. Really? Really?

Be in proper position, get set, see the play, read, pause, react.

Make the damn call.

Jeez.

Hammer with the right arm, left arm extended parallel to the ground with a strong verbal: "That's a tie!"

nopachunts
03-16-2012, 02:30 PM
Hammer with the right arm, left arm extended parallel to the ground with a strong verbal: "That's a tie!"

And let the fun begin.

cajunyankee
03-16-2012, 03:17 PM
Yeah, I was bored.

I actually have a partner that, after a coach dressed him down rather loudly about the fact that a tie goes to the runner, yelled 'TIE' for every close safe call at 1B for the rest of the game.

Pretty funny...in the right scenario.

semper_fi_72
03-16-2012, 04:54 PM
Wouldn't this be fun to do.

Close banger make no call and call "TIME".
Reach into your pocket and pull out a coin and flip it in the air and then make your call.
When the coach asks what the heck was that say,
Coach that was so close I had to decide the tie some how so I decided it with the flip of the coin.;)

BigUmp56
03-16-2012, 05:11 PM
Shall I bring up the advanced thinking (I know this is the Newbie section) of using what players did leading up to this perceived "tie" (booted ball, hell of a bunt, Jeter-esque gymnastics), and factoring that into the equation?

Probably not, as it will surely make some heads explode. Maybe only guys who wear a plate coat should consider that sort o' stuff. ;)



It's early March, Kyle. I'd say go ahead and do it. Lets cover the whole enchilada of "making the expected call", through rewarding the team that made the better play, and punishing the team who made a poor play.


Tim.

kyle_jt
03-16-2012, 08:01 PM
It's early March, Kyle. I'd say go ahead and do it. Lets cover the whole enchilada of "making the expected call", through rewarding the team that made the better play, and punishing the team who made a poor play.


Tim.

Tim, then we'd follow that same logic for pitches, too. How a 3-0 pitch is different that a 3-2. Catchers reaching over their shingaurds, etc. Dangerous territory with so many sophomore umpires out there. I might get burned at the stake for heresy.

AugieDonatelli
03-19-2012, 06:53 PM
Yeah, I was bored.

I actually have a partner that, after a coach dressed him down rather loudly about the fact that a tie goes to the runner, yelled 'TIE' for every close safe call at 1B for the rest of the game.

Pretty funny...in the right scenario.
Thanks for making laugh while eating my Frosted Mini Wheats this morning. Good thing I didn't blow the cereal out of my nose!

heyblue26
03-20-2012, 03:05 AM
Thanks for making laugh while eating my Frosted Mini Wheats this morning. Good thing I didn't blow the cereal out of my nose!

Lucky Augie the Mini wheats did come out and all over your keyboard what a mess that would of been and no tie to the runner either. Good to see you back on the forum. It's that time of season and have a great one.

Rich_Ives
03-20-2012, 03:08 AM
no tie to the runner either


QED

BigUmp56
03-20-2012, 11:42 AM
They are either out or safe. Your job is to determine the call. Nothing more, nothing less.

I think this is the best advice you've ever given here. Just make the call based on all the information at your disposal to make it correct IN YOUR JUDGEMENT. When action has competely relaxed, head back to your position and wait to do it again.

Tim.

jomatiky
03-20-2012, 04:35 PM
no tie to the runner either


QED

Bow tie maybe

mturman
03-20-2012, 06:58 PM
Just so we are clear...Ties do not go to the runner...Neither do the jackets and pants:D

Aloha,
Mike

jomatiky
03-21-2012, 02:43 PM
Just so we are clear...Ties do not go to the runner...Neither do the jackets and pants:D

Aloha,
Mike

You are 100% right. The tie, jacket, pants & hat goes to the umpire

Rich_Ives
03-21-2012, 02:55 PM
Denial reigns supreme - a general human fraility so don't be ashamed. :)

mturman
03-21-2012, 05:49 PM
You are 100% right. The tie, jacket, pants & hat goes to the umpire

Good one!!!:p

Aloha,
Mike

heyblue26
03-22-2012, 07:41 AM
You are 100% right. The tie, jacket, pants & hat goes to the umpire

Yes I have a picture some what like that its of Billy Evans another great umpire

jomatiky
03-22-2012, 09:26 PM
Yes I have a picture some what like that its of Billy Evans another great umpire

How about this guy. He was Babe Ruth also

heyblue26
03-23-2012, 03:09 AM
How about this guy. He was Babe Ruth also

Now that Is just great a great photo noticed he didn't have a plate brush when cleaning off the plate. It is a cool picture.

heyblue26
03-23-2012, 03:12 AM
Yes the umpires of years past wore all those things mentioned. I have a picture and baseball cards signed by the late and great Jocko Conlan in all the attire that is mentioned.

mturman
03-26-2012, 06:48 AM
Had a banger at 1st on Saturday...I had the bases...Really close...I pumped the kid out...The coach moaned..."C'mon Blue...That was a tie"

I responded "Yup, that's why he was out..."

He was dumb founded...Loved it and thought that as soon as I sat at my desk I was going to post it:D

Aloha,
Mike

heyblue26
03-26-2012, 07:24 AM
Had a banger at 1st on Saturday...I had the bases...Really close...I pumped the kid out...The coach moaned..."C'mon Blue...That was a tie"

I responded "Yup, that's why he was out..."

He was dumb founded...Loved it and thought that as soon as I sat at my desk I was going to post it:D

Aloha,
Mike

You gave him the right answer but you also could of told him It was a tie, and all ties go to the umpire. Just Kidding I think that you gave the right response. I know you sold the call.

BigUmp56
03-27-2012, 09:41 AM
Please take this in the spirit that it's intended, Mike. I wouldn't have said a word to the coach. You potentially set yourself up for a confrontation that would have ended up in you having to run this coach.

If this coach truly believed the myth, as so many others do, your comment may have been easily interpreted by this coach as you intentionally kicking the call. Bang the runner out and ignore the coach as long as he's not too out of line with his arguing.


Tim.

scrounge
03-27-2012, 04:41 PM
Not that I think it was all that wrong really, but to avoid the issue that BigUmp references, you could also say "So you agree, coach, that the runner didn't beat the throw?" :)

Had a banger at 1st on Saturday...I had the bases...Really close...I pumped the kid out...The coach moaned..."C'mon Blue...That was a tie"

I responded "Yup, that's why he was out..."

He was dumb founded...Loved it and thought that as soon as I sat at my desk I was going to post it:D

Aloha,
Mike

mturman
03-27-2012, 05:25 PM
All taken in stride guys and no worries...This particular game I was known by both teams and knew them as well...I didn't state it for expediencey...

Aloha,
Mike

AugieDonatelli
03-27-2012, 07:08 PM
Please take this in the spirit that it's intended, Mike. I wouldn't have said a word to the coach. You potentially set yourself up for a confrontation that would have ended up in you having to run this coach.

If this coach truly believed the myth, as so many others do, your comment may have been easily interpreted by this coach as you intentionally kicking the call. Bang the runner out and ignore the coach as long as he's not too out of line with his arguing.


Tim.
Maybe we should carry copies of Baseball's 40 Biggest Myths to hand the coaches after the game, so they can look at Myth #1 very closely, and hopefully learn a few things along the way. If we don't educate these coaches (especially at the lower levels) as we go along, they will continue to perpetuate such garbage as "Tie goes to the runner." Just a thought.

mturman
03-27-2012, 07:42 PM
Maybe we should carry copies of Baseball's 40 Biggest Myths to hand the coaches after the game, so they can look at Myth #1 very closely, and hopefully learn a few things along the way. If we don't educate these coaches (especially at the lower levels) as we go along, they will continue to perpetuate such garbage as "Tie goes to the runner." Just a thought.

On occassion we get a coach or two that attend our meetings...These are the better coaches because they demonstrate a desire to know the game from our perspective as well as taking the time to actually learn the officiating rules as opposed to being well versed in the playing rules...

I once opined that as an organization it would be nice to consider offering some form of training clinic to those coaches that might want to learn more...I admit it was a bit naive...But I do see some merit in this...At least offer them the Fed exam to see what we must go through...

Aloha,
Mike

yawetag
03-28-2012, 05:17 AM
The sad part is there are umpires (usually at the younger levels) who believe a lot of the myths, which makes our job harder as the kids grow older.

socal lurker
03-28-2012, 03:56 PM
The sad part is there are umpires (usually at the younger levels) who believe a lot of the myths, which makes our job harder as the kids grow older.

Makes it hard on kids, umpires, and us daddy-coaches who try to learn the rules. . . . and as a parent who this year got dragged into being a daddy-asst oach, I am grateful to you all in this forum for what I learn . . .

cajunyankee
03-28-2012, 04:15 PM
Lurker,

It's great that you're here.
In my area, there is a shortage of umpires that are willing to teach other officials, let alone talk with coaches about rules, umpire mechanics, etc.

I pride myself on being approachable away from the games. I enjoy talking baseball rules, etc. with coaches and I welcome them to contact me to discuss something they saw, did, etc.

Understand, we're talking about Travel ball coaches (mostly daddy coaches) and any contact is on my terms and is done with the understanding that I'm not going to throw any other official under a bus, but that I'll talk about rules, etc. as long as anyone will listen.

Again, I applaud your effort to come on here and learn.

lustersilk
03-28-2012, 04:15 PM
Our LL District gives about 12 rules clinics prior to each season. Most leagues require all team managers and coaches to attend, which makes for a much better informed group of adults.

heyblue26
03-29-2012, 01:39 AM
Our LL District gives about 12 rules clinics prior to each season. Most leagues require all team managers and coaches to attend, which makes for a much better informed group of adults.

Now thats what I am talking about what has been said above. It can't hurt if it is presented in a posstive form and everyone is welling to learn.