dead ball base running dilemma

[Bluefish]

R1 on third, R2 is on first with one out. B4 hits a sinking line drive to center field. R1 tags properly and goes home. R2 is moving on the pitch and F8 makes a great catch. R2 is beyond second base as F8 throws back to first in an attempt to double up R2. The ball goes into the dugout with R2 stil between second and third. R2 touches second and goes back to touch first. What's the ruling.

[dash_riprock]

R1 on third, R2 is on first with one out. B4 hits a sinking line drive to center field. R1 tags properly and goes home. R2 is moving on the pitch and F8 makes a great catch. R2 is beyond second base as F8 throws back to first in an attempt to double up R2. The ball goes into the dugout with R2 stil between second and third. R2 touches second and goes back to touch first. What's the ruling.

Award R2 3rd base and call him out on proper appeal. Score the run in any event.

BTW: You will be appreciated here if you refer to runners in the non-FED manner.

[grayhawk]

R1 on third, R2 is on first with one out. B4 hits a sinking line drive to center field. R1 tags properly and goes home. R2 is moving on the pitch and F8 makes a great catch. R2 is beyond second base as F8 throws back to first in an attempt to double up R2. The ball goes into the dugout with R2 stil between second and third. R2 touches second and goes back to touch first. What's the ruling.

Time is called when the ball goes into the dugout. Award R2 home (two bases from TOT). When he goes back to touch first, revise the award and send him to third.

Edit: I agree with Dash that R2 shall be called out on proper appeal. If a runner is on or past the next base when the ball becomes dead, he cannot legally retouch.

[wayne37]

Award R2 home (two bases from TOT). When he goes back to touch first, revise the award and send him to third.



I've never heard it done that way.

[jaxrolo]

I've never heard it done that way.

90% of Umpires will screw this up. 99% of coaches won't know the Umpire Screwed it up! :D

[grayhawk]

I've never heard it done that way.

This play is almost identical to one in the WUM. Now, the WUM is OBR based, so I am not certain that the Fed mechanic should be the same.

The two base award from TOT is the same. The runner was between 2nd and 3rd at TOT, so the award should be home. Where I could possibly see a difference is that in OBR, the runner can legally retouch first, whereas in Fed he cannot. So when he legally touches first, you revise the award in OBR. Since he can't legally retouch in Fed, maybe the revision shouldn't be done.

What I don't want to do is alert either team on how to handle the play. They both need to know the rules, and I don't want to tip anything off with regard to the appeal or the retouch.

If the defense knows the rule, and since dead ball appeals are allowed, I imagine that the coach would just yell out that they appeal the runner cannot legally retouch and I call him out right there. But what are the chances that they know this?

[dash_riprock]

This play is almost identical to one in the WUM. Now, the WUM is OBR based, so I am not certain that the Fed mechanic should be the same.

The two base award from TOT is the same. The runner was between 2nd and 3rd at TOT, so the award should be home. Where I could possibly see a difference is that in OBR, the runner can legally retouch first, whereas in Fed he cannot. So when he legally touches first, you revise the award in OBR. Since he can't legally retouch in Fed, maybe the revision shouldn't be done.

What I don't want to do is alert either team on how to handle the play. They both need to know the rules, and I don't want to tip anything off with regard to the appeal or the retouch.

If the defense knows the rule, and since dead ball appeals are allowed, I imagine that the coach would just yell out that they appeal the runner cannot legally retouch and I call him out right there. But what are the chances that they know this?

There is an identical (in all relevant aspects) play in the FED case book. R1 is attempting to return to 1st and is between 2nd and 3rd when the ball becomes dead. The ruling is to award him 3rd if there is no appeal (which can be made while the ball is still dead). I don't own a FED mechanics manual but my guess would be the revised award mechanic is not in there.

[wayne37]

This play is almost identical to one in the WUM. Now, the WUM is OBR based, so I am not certain that the Fed mechanic should be the same.

The two base award from TOT is the same. The runner was between 2nd and 3rd at TOT, so the award should be home. Where I could possibly see a difference is that in OBR, the runner can legally retouch first, whereas in Fed he cannot. So when he legally touches first, you revise the award in OBR. Since he can't legally retouch in Fed, maybe the revision shouldn't be done.

What I don't want to do is alert either team on how to handle the play. They both need to know the rules, and I don't want to tip anything off with regard to the appeal or the retouch.

If the defense knows the rule, and since dead ball appeals are allowed, I imagine that the coach would just yell out that they appeal the runner cannot legally retouch and I call him out right there. But what are the chances that they know this?

I thought we were talking FED? Award the runner 3B as 1B was his last legally acquired base. Runner can still correct his baserunning mistake, but it is still up to the defense to make a proper appeal.

You'd be suprised what some of the long time coaches do know.

[Rich_Ives]

I thought we were talking FED? Award the runner 3B as 1B was his last legally acquired base. Runner can still correct his baserunning mistake, but it is still up to the defense to make a proper appeal.

You'd be suprised what some of the long time coaches do know.

The award is two bases TOT - home.

He cannot legally return to 1B if he was at or beyond 2B at the TOT. If he does go back and "fix" it it wasn't legal and he's out on appeal.

[dash_riprock]

He cannot legally return to 1B if he was at or beyond 2B at the TOT.

Yes he can, as long as he retreats past 2B before the ball becomes dead.

[Matt13]

Yes he can, as long as he retreats past 2B before the ball becomes dead.

Umm, you just said the same thing he did, in different words.

[dash_riprock]

Umm, you just said the same thing he did, in different words.

Umm, nope. The different words were time of throw vs. time the ball became dead. TOT determines the award, not whether the runner can legally retouch.

[KenGibes]

Umm, nope. The different words were time of throw vs. time the ball became dead. TOT determines the award, not whether the runner can legally retouch.

+1

A subtle, but very important point. The base award is made based on TOT. How far back the runner is allowed to retouch is based on when the ball became dead.

[Matt13]

Umm, nope. The different words were time of throw vs. time the ball became dead. TOT determines the award, not whether the runner can legally retouch.

Oops...missed that. Sorry. Damn cold medicine.

[typikon]

Is this an area where Jaksa/roder is "off"?:

Example, from page 72:

"R1, one out. R1, thinking there are two outs, continues running past second base as the batter's fly ball goes toward the right fielder. The right fielder catches the ball for the second out and throws toward first for an appeal of R1's failure to retouch. R1 is standing between second and third when the right fielder's throw goes out of play: if R1 does not proceed to touch third base after the ball has become dead, he can return to touch first base, second and third base in accepting his award."

This suggests that the J/R is interpreting the "advance base" to be 3rd base?

[backinBlue]

Is this an area where Jaksa/roder is "off"?:

Example, from page 72:

"R1, one out. R1, thinking there are two outs, continues running past second base as the batter's fly ball goes toward the right fielder. The right fielder catches the ball for the second out and throws toward first for an appeal of R1's failure to retouch. R1 is standing between second and third when the right fielder's throw goes out of play: if R1 does not proceed to touch third base after the ball has become dead, he can return to touch first base, second and third base in accepting his award."

This suggests that the J/R is interpreting the "advance base" to be 3rd base?
Remember typkon, we are Talking FED rules here, Its one of the BRD's; in OBR (which is what THE J/R Manuel is based on) that ruling is correct you can retouch after a dead ball provided he does not touch 3rd after the ball went out of play.
In Fed the runner Can NOT legally retouch if he is beyond the next base .

[heyblue26]

Even though J/R is a rewritten manual of the rules of Professional Baseball the example found on page 72 of the 2010 edition is correct as stated. This OP situation apply's to NFHS and the runner can not return to touch first base as it has been stated. The Book titled BRD is a good resource to check out.

[leelee]

If I coached, I would teach my players to just throw the ball out of play and then appeal that the runner cannot retreat once he is passed the next base, if he has in fact done so. Guaranteed out and not worrying about ball getting away from my defense and runner making it back. By the way, what would the reasoning be behind this rule difference from OBR to FED?

[KenGibes]

If I coached, I would teach my players to just throw the ball out of play and then appeal that the runner cannot retreat once he is passed the next base, if he has in fact done so. Guaranteed out and not worrying about ball getting away from my defense and runner making it back. By the way, what would the reasoning be behind this rule difference from OBR to FED?

I think the time spent pre-coaching this point would end up being of minimal value. How many times would you run into this situation?

Also... consider R1 who has left 1B (possibly on a steal attempt) and has rounded 2B and then realizes that he needs to return to 1B because F8 made a tough catch. R1 may be past 2B when F8 releases the ball, but if R1 makes it back to 2B on his way to 1B before the throw actually goes into DBT, R1 can safely return to 1B and retag. He would then be awarded 3B, right?

But I think your point is that the defense gains an advantage by the way the rule is written (as compared to OBR.) Agreed. It's not the only place, though. Just about every rule difference gives an advantage to one side or the other, such as the prohibition for overrunning 1B on a base on balls. Offense gets screwed on a 3-2 check swing that gets by the catcher. The ensuing play at 1B may be close, but if it is ruled that the batter-runner didn't actually offer at the pitch, then it's a base-on-balls and the batter runner had better not overrun the base. FED doesn't permit it, and the batter-runner can be tagged out.

[grayhawk]

If I coached, I would teach my players to just throw the ball out of play and then appeal that the runner cannot retreat once he is passed the next base, if he has in fact done so. Guaranteed out and not worrying about ball getting away from my defense and runner making it back. By the way, what would the reasoning be behind this rule difference from OBR to FED?

There's actually a rule that prevents the defense from gaining an advantage by doing this:

8-3-3 d. - A runner shall not be declared out if the fielder throws or carries a ball into dead ball territory to prevent that runner who has touched or advanced beyond a succeeding base from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. Award the runner two bases. This allows the runner(s) to correct any baserunning error. Defense may still appeal the play.

Funny that since they modified the rule from OBR, they had to create a whole new rule to cover the mess they created.

[alex7]

I think typikon is referring to J/R being off in awarding the runner third, instead of home.

" R1 is standing between second and third when the right fielder's throw goes out of play: if R1 does not proceed to touch third base after the ball has become dead, he can return to touch first base, second and third base in accepting his award."

This suggests that the J/R is interpreting the "advance base" to be 3rd base?"

[lawump1]

Time is called when the ball goes into the dugout. Award R2 home (two bases from TOT). When he goes back to touch first, revise the award and send him to third.


This is one rule interpretation that has SUBSTANTIAL differences from one level to the next. The interpretation posted above is the MLB interpretation set forth in the MLBUM. When that interpretation was first printed, it was different than the interpretation then in existence in the PBUC manual (which pre-dated the MLBUM). Both the MLBUM and PBUC differ from FED interpretation.

Adding to the confusion is when R2 is and is not allowed to go back and legally re-touch first base if he is beyond second base at the split second the thrown ball enters DBT. In OBR, he can go back and re-touch first base, legally, as long as he does so before he proceeds to touch third base. Furthermore, let's say R1 is "Speedy Gonzales" and he takes off from first on the pitch and he is between third and home when the throw from the outfield to F3 goes into DBT...R1 can legally return to first base and retouch as long as he does so before he proceeds and touches home.

In FED, in this play, if R1 is beyond second base at the split second the errant throw enters DBT then he cannot legally re-touch first base. Which means in South Carolina (since we do not have appeal plays) we (the umpire) have to call R1 "out" immediately. Think how that one is going to go over with the offensive coach!!!!

EDITED TO ADD: When the MLBUM published its interpretation set forth above, the PBUC interpretation in existence at that time was to award the runner third base. It was then R1's responsibility to know that he had to go back and touch first base before continuing on to third base.

The reason MLBUM did not adopt the PBUC interpretation is that the initial authors of the MLBUM felt that by telling R1 (who was standing between second base and third base) that he was awarded third base, the umpire was giving the offense an unfair advantage in that it, in effect, tipped off the runner that he had not left first base legally. This, of course, ignores the reality of the situation: that 99.9% of professional players, coaches and managers are too ignorant to have a clue one way or the other.