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mudder
06-08-2011, 02:23 AM
If a batter cannot makes contact with a ball (fair or foul) while his foot is completetly out of the batter's box, he would be out for being out of the batter's box.

But can he start with one foot completely out of the box when he sets up for the pitch (as the pitcher becomes set), would he still be penalized for being out the box, or is the determining factor where are his feet when he makes contact will the ball?

You see this all the time where batters will have a very open stance where their lead leg is off to the side and then they swing their front leg arround to square to hit the ball when the pitch comes in

lawump1
06-08-2011, 03:17 AM
The rule (6.06 (a) ) states he can only be called "out" when he hits a ball with one or both feet completely outside of the batter's box. Thus, it does not matter where his feet are prior to his making contact by "hitting" the ball.

At this risk of hijacking this thread...and I'm trying not to...and at the risk of looking like I am flaming here...which I am also not try to do as I mean what follows as serious advice.

How do you, as the PU, know if the batter's foot is in or out of the box when the pitcher is coming set? [Answer: If you are doing your job, you don't! When the pitcher is coming set you better darn well be focused on the pitcher (watching for balks or anything else unusual at the mound).]

How do you, as the PU, know if the batter's foot is completely out of the box when the batter makes contact with the pitch? [Answer: If you are doing your job, you don't! They are not paying you to call a batter out for being out of the box. They are paying you to call balls and strikes. If you are doing your job of calling balls and strikes you are tracking the pitch all the way from the pitcher to the catcher's glove...meaning you can't look down to check the batter's feet as he makes contact with the pitched ball.]

If you see a batter CLEARLY set up outside of the box prior to the pitcher engaging the rubber (i.e. maybe the catcher complains to you), use some preventative umpiring and clue the batter in. (I'm not talking about your situation in the OP where the batter starts with an "open" stance and then closes it as the pitch is delivered. I'm talking about the batter is using a "normal" stance and is setting up outside of the box.) With that said many pro umpires will not enforce the back line of the batter's box. (Ever watch John Hirschbeck wipe out the back lines of the batter's boxes before the first pitch of a game?).

The ONLY time I ever call a batter "out" for being out of the batter's box is when he squares around to bunt and he stands on home plate. I can see this because he is preventing me from tracking the pitch and I have no choice but to look at him.

I am not trying to flame here...I just want to give you my thoughts on the batter's box rule.

dukemd
06-08-2011, 03:24 AM
if he does not make contact (foul or fair) he is not out. 6.06a

6.02a 6.03 address the batter and box

mt 73
06-08-2011, 03:39 AM
The ONLY time I ever call a batter "out" for being out of the batter's box is when he squares around to bunt and he stands on home plate. I can see this because he is preventing me from tracking the pitch and I have no choice but to look at him.
Bad call blue.
Having a foot on home plate when hitting the ball is not an automatic out.
He has to be touching home plate with his foot completely out of the batters box to be called out when contacting the ball.

Rich_Ives
06-08-2011, 03:42 AM
The ONLY time I ever call a batter "out" for being out of the batter's box is when he squares around to bunt and he stands on home plate. I can see this because he is preventing me from tracking the pitch and I have no choice but to look at him.
Bad call blue.
Having a foot on home plate when hitting the ball is not an automatic out.
He has to be touching home plate with his foot completely out of the batters box to be called out when contacting the ball.

In FED and NCAA rules he is out if touching the plate while contacting the ball - no requirement for the foot to also be completely out of the box it he's touching the plate.

In OBR he has to be completely out of the box, on the ground, with no reference to touching the plate.

mudder
06-08-2011, 04:10 AM
So the only time a batter is penalized (called out) is being out of the box when making contact with the ball, otherwise he can stand where he wants, without penalty?

Is there a specific rule reference that states the batter must be totally in the box when the pitcher is about to deliver a pitch?

Rich_Ives
06-08-2011, 04:42 AM
So the only time a batter is penalized (called out) is being out of the box when making contact with the ball, otherwise he can stand where he wants, without penalty?

Is there a specific rule reference that states the batter must be totally in the box when the pitcher is about to deliver a pitch?

6.02 and 6.03 in OBR - including the penalty.

bobjenkins
06-08-2011, 02:17 PM
So the only time a batter is penalized (called out) is being out of the box when making contact with the ball, otherwise he can stand where he wants, without penalty?

No, the batter must be entirely IN the box when he takes his stance. Since the lines are part of the box, this means he can be on the line, but no part of the foot may extend beyond the line.

There's no penalty, just tell the batter to get in the box (okay, if he refuses, then there's a penalty, but that's never happened to me).

dileonardoja
06-08-2011, 08:28 PM
In case anyone is interested:

6.03 The batter’s legal position shall be with both feet within the batter’s box.
APPROVED RULING: The lines defining the box are within the batter’s box.

lawump1
06-08-2011, 08:58 PM
The ONLY time I ever call a batter "out" for being out of the batter's box is when he squares around to bunt and he stands on home plate. I can see this because he is preventing me from tracking the pitch and I have no choice but to look at him.
Bad call blue.
Having a foot on home plate when hitting the ball is not an automatic out.
He has to be touching home plate with his foot completely out of the batters box to be called out when contacting the ball.


My post was in reference to OBR. I was not trying to refer to any rule in NCAA, FED or any other rule set where the batter could be called out for touching home plate even though a portion of his foot may still be in the batter's box (and I was not trying to imply that there is any such rule in OBR).

Rather, what I was trying to convey is that there have been times in games I have umpired when a batter has placed his entire foot on top of home plate as he squares around to bunt. (I admit I was not very clear about that in my first post in this thread...but that was what I was picturing in my head as I was typing). The intent of my referencing a batter standing on (top of) the plate was simply to show that in such a case the batter is making it so obvious that he is out of the box that you must call it in that case.

The major point of my first post in this thread was that umpires should rarely call batter's "out" for being out of the batter's box. In fact, I was attempting (admittedly poorly) to state that the only time I call a batter "out" for being out of the batter's box is when he stands on top of home plate when he squares around to bunt. I stand by this major point of my first post in this thread.

EastTNump08
06-08-2011, 10:47 PM
I've only made this call once on a non bunt attempt now that I think about it. I think it's easier to see on a bunt because you have a pretty good idea of where his feet were before he squared and you can see how much he moved his feet when he went to square (more peripheral vision here) so you have a good idea if he was out of the box. I have to admit there have been time that I've told coaches complaining about this call, "Which would you rather me be really focused on back there, coach? I can focus on the pitch or I can focus on his feet. You pick." That said, I had one kid who scooted way up as a pitch was coming in (almost like a slap hitter in softball) because this kid was throwing so slow (10u rec game). I called him out, but everyone in the park saw him out of the box when he contacted the ball (of course that doesnt' mean that everyone in the park knew the rule haha).

Dragon29
06-08-2011, 11:46 PM
Concur w/lawump1 - I've made this call exactly twice and each time it was a RH batter squaring to bunt and trying to get that extra step towards 1B.

Interstingly enough, both calls were on the same player (manager's son) almost exactly one year apart! The manager (a good umpire in his own right) didn't say a word either time.
I do think he smacked his kid in the back of the head as he was entering the dugout on the 2nd one. :p

mt 73
06-09-2011, 05:14 AM
In fact, I was attempting (admittedly poorly) to state that the only time I call a batter "out" for being out of the batter's box is when he stands on top of home plate when he squares around to bunt. I stand by this major point of my first post in this thread.
If you call this during a game that I am coaching--under OBR--I will ask you if he is out because he is on the plate or because his foot is out of the box.
If you say "the plate" then I will protest the game.
( Not really, but I will roll my eyes a few times on the way back to the dugout.)

neblue
06-09-2011, 01:14 PM
How do you, as the PU, know if the batter's foot is completely out of the box when the batter makes contact with the pitch? ...meaning you can't look down to check the batter's feet as he makes contact with the pitched ball.]



While it's true, that the only time that I have seen a batter called out, other than while attempting to bunt, has been in a girls softball game. Some girl softball hitters, usually the slap hitters, will start "running/moving" toward the front of the box while the pitch is in flight. In essence, a "running start." In some cases, these type hitters are called out for being out of the box while attempting to slap hit the softball.

To respond to the above quote, in a game just yesterday, RH batter. Bunting situation. Batter squares to bunt. Pitch delivered, ball strikes bat. On the sound, I immediately check batters feet. Batter's left foot is on top of home plate. Batter called out for being out of box. Runners returned. I use "the sound of the ball hitting the bat" as a "quick check" to see if batters foot is outside of the box. We're only talking a split second to make this determination. I feel that I am still able to do my job (track pitch, call fair/foul, etc.) as a PU.

mt 73
06-09-2011, 01:54 PM
I prefer not to be a rule Nazi.
I won't call a kid out for this unless his foot is so far out as to be absurd.
Especially if it is the typical field which does not have foul/batter box lines.
Nor will I call a kid out for being hit with his batted ball unless he is a few steps up the first base line.

Rich_Ives
06-09-2011, 02:19 PM
While it's true, that the only time that I have seen a batter called out, other than while attempting to bunt, has been in a girls softball game. Some girl softball hitters, usually the slap hitters, will start "running/moving" toward the front of the box while the pitch is in flight. In essence, a "running start." In some cases, these type hitters are called out for being out of the box while attempting to slap hit the softball.

To respond to the above quote, in a game just yesterday, RH batter. Bunting situation. Batter squares to bunt. Pitch delivered, ball strikes bat. On the sound, I immediately check batters feet. Batter's left foot is on top of home plate. Batter called out for being out of box. Runners returned. I use "the sound of the ball hitting the bat" as a "quick check" to see if batters foot is outside of the box. We're only talking a split second to make this determination. I feel that I am still able to do my job (track pitch, call fair/foul, etc.) as a PU.

The true softball box is a foot longer into fair territory than the baseball box to accomodate this. If someone marked it with a baseball template than the plays are probably not being called correctly.

As for checking where the feet are when the ball is hit - your priorities are messed up. You should be tracking the ball to be ready for fair/foul, interference, etc. Where the feet are should be at the bottom of your list, not the top.

yawetag
06-09-2011, 03:02 PM
As for checking where the feet are when the ball is hit - your priorities are messed up. You should be tracking the ball to be ready for fair/foul, interference, etc. Where the feet are should be at the bottom of your list, not the top.

This. In the time it took you to check, the ball could have bounced off her foot or bounced back up and hit her as she exited the box, or the ball could have gone off her hand and not the bat.

lawump1
06-09-2011, 03:47 PM
On the sound, I immediately check batters feet. Batter's left foot is on top of home plate. Batter called out for being out of box. Runners returned. I use "the sound of the ball hitting the bat" as a "quick check" to see if batters foot is outside of the box. We're only talking a split second to make this determination. I feel that I am still able to do my job (track pitch, call fair/foul, etc.) as a PU.

I don't pretend to know softball mechanics, but from a baseball perspective, wow! In a game involving shaving-aged players, in the "split second" you checked the batter's feet you may have missed your only opportunity to see if a batted ball was fair or foul on a laser shot that bounds over (or maybe to the left of) third base.

That's just the first example that comes to mind.

OzUmp
06-09-2011, 09:08 PM
I prefer not to be a rule Nazi.
I won't call a kid out for this unless his foot is so far out as to be absurd.
Especially if it is the typical field which does not have foul/batter box lines.
Nor will I call a kid out for being hit with his batted ball unless he is a few steps up the first base line.


I like this. I would give you a rep point if I knew how. Although I do call hitting the ball out of the box on ocassion if I need an out.

mt 73
06-09-2011, 09:24 PM
I like this. I would give you a rep point if I knew how. Although I do call hitting the ball out of the box on ocassion if I need an out.
Sometimes outs are hard to come by so I will heartily agree.

djs_net
06-10-2011, 01:46 AM
I like this. I would give you a rep point if I knew how. Although I do call hitting the ball out of the box on ocassion if I need an out.

Wow, are you serious? Are you saying you make unwarranted calls when you "need an out"?

I would subtract rep points from you if I knew how.

bigbird69
06-10-2011, 06:49 AM
I have only called one player out, it was a bunt and his body actually blocked my view (foot completely between HP and catcher).

I had about 8 possible calls this past week in the same manner (if only the ball hit the bat.) I had warned the coach (LL minors) that many of his players were doing this... still the only thing that helped was the pitchers panicked and missed the strikezone badly when they squared up.

Softball does have the extra foot, but I have seen it when a pitcher with a good changeup can get them out of the box as they timed themselves with the heat and did not get it... Most good ones will just take the pitch to avoid the Out of the box penalty.

OzUmp
06-10-2011, 11:26 AM
Wow, are you serious? Are you saying you make unwarranted calls when you "need an out"?

You can bet you ass on it son.

cajunyankee
06-10-2011, 04:30 PM
Unbelievable. Really.

OzUmp
06-10-2011, 08:50 PM
Not really. It is simply that I hold ball players in as high regard as I do most other people I am forced to interact with.