Improperly escalating an argument

[mtnump]

First time poster. I had a situation yesterday in a JV game where the visiting HC was doing his best to be demonstrative and show us up. My partner has only a year or two of experience, whereas I've been at this since I was 14 (I'll be 30 this summer). It unfolds like this:

2nd inning, I'm the BU, in B. Kid at the plate checks his swing. PU calls him out on strikes and says he went. Not very loud, not enough 'sell' (a problem I was trying to help him correct), but it was clear what he was calling. HC is at 3rd and comes in barking about how he should 'come to me' for assistance. I come to the plate to talk to my partner about how to avoid the situation in the future, and be the rodeo clown if necessary. Coach is almost to the dugout and he turns around with arms outstretched, palms up, and I tell him "don't give me that." He changes his body language, apologizes, and proceeds to say he didn't like my partner's timing. I calmly tell him that I'd rather he take a split second and get it right, which doesn't satisfy the coach, but he proceeds to the dugout and keeps his act together. I should have warned him right there that charging in and shouting will not be tolerated.

Fast forward to 5th. HC in same position, now I'm down 1st base line. B1 offers bunt, pulls back late as ball is crossing plate. PU gets blocked out and comes to me for appeal. I say he went. HC pulls the same stunt, charges in, yelling "he pulled back!" I say "no he didn't." Same argument from HC, my reply: "not soon enough." HC continues to pop off. My reply: "Stop yelling at me from the sideline like a little girl." HC goes in to yell at my partner about me, and my partner lets it go on way too long. I feel uncomfortable going in (I knew I had instigated his behavior) and I'm practically in right field, and the HC is still not ejected. He does stop his bickering. My partner keeps his cool the whole time.

I foolishly go in to speak to my partner between innings and find out why the HC is still in the game. HC passes by and says he wants to file a complaint, and I issue him his warning about showing us up and barking across the diamond. All around, looks bad on both of us. I'm heated, HC is insulted, PU looks weak. PU tells me later that he told the HC that he made this bed in the 2nd inning, arguing about the check swing.

The visiting team ended up winning the game, but the whole thing was sour. My director knew the HC and told me he used to dump him all the time back when he played college ball. My assignor was less than pleased but told me to just learn from it and move on.

I suppose my lesson to be learned is one of restraint and professionalism. Even though it was funny at the time, I regret doing it, and should have either tossed the coach or given him a "that's enough!" instead of playing into his hand. Just wondering if anyone else has had similar lapses in judgment.

[p1timeblue]

and I tell him "don't give me that."

My reply: "Stop yelling at me from the sideline like a little girl."


"That's enough" should suffice, "wooosh!" if necessary, but not stuff like this.

[heyblue26]

If you let things go when they need to defused right away the coaches can make you look bad. So even though your partner only had about a year and without showing him up because your a team out there and you came to his aid when you saw what was happening.

When the HC came down the line to question his call on the check swing he should of stopped him right then. It seem that he was trying to argue ball and strikes and should of been given a warning then. If he continued then he should of been ejected. Buy making the statement "stop yelling at me from the sidelines like a little girl" didn't seem to help matters and just escalated the situation.

We have to be approachable and let them have their say as long as they do not get personnel or say something that is demeaning in nature. At times its a hard way to learn and then again you and your partner should have a after game briefing talk it over after the game and what could of been done better to help each other, conduct a pre game briefings. These are just my 2 cents. We all try to call a good game and with consistance and only getting better.

[mtnump]

My usual response when a coach gets upset about a call is to tell him to come out and talk if he's got something to say. The majority of coaches out here just do it automatically. I don't mind discussing a call either, but I have a profound distaste for being chirped at from the sidelines, especially if you're dancing around and making a spectacle of yourself.

My partner did acknowledge that he should have ejected the coach for arguing judgment calls/balls & strikes/etc. I'm mostly mad at myself for letting him get me riled up.

[Richard_Siegel]

First time poster. ....

Fast forward to 5th. HC in same position, now I'm down 1st base line. B1 offers bunt, pulls back late as ball is crossing plate. PU gets blocked out and comes to me for appeal. I say he went. HC pulls the same stunt, charges in, yelling "he pulled back!" I say "no he didn't." Same argument from HC, my reply: "not soon enough." HC continues to pop off. My reply: "Stop yelling at me from the sideline like a little girl." HC goes in to yell at my partner about me, and my partner lets it go on way too long. .....
I suppose my lesson to be learned is one of restraint and professionalism. Even though it was funny at the time, I regret doing it, and should have either tossed the coach or given him a "that's enough!" instead of playing into his hand. Just wondering if anyone else has had similar lapses in judgment.


One of the cardinal rules we umpires must always remember is that we must NEVER say anything to a coach or player that we would eject them form if they had said it to us. How can you expect to get respect from a coach if you insult him first!? The "Stop yelling at me from the sideline like a little girl." comment is an excellent example of something you must never do again. Suppose the coach then responded to you, "You umpire like a little girl." How could you toss him now? Once you cross the line and insult a coach it's now open season on YOU. You have lost the right to demand his respect and toss him if he insults you.

Whenever a base coach (even if he is the HC) leaves his position and approaches the PU to argue balls and strikes (arguing a checked swing is the same thing) it is an automatic EJ. He should have been gone right then and there.

[jmurray]

"Pulled back" has nothing to do with a bunt offer in FED and most other baseball codes. This is off your original topic but you might want to consider not using that terminology. The bat can be held extended by the batter as long as he does not offer at the ball out of the strike zone.

[mtnump]

"Pulled back" has nothing to do with a bunt offer in FED and most other baseball codes. This is off your original topic but you might want to consider not using that terminology. The bat can be held extended by the batter as long as he does not offer at the ball out of the strike zone.
As far as I could tell, the kid offered at the pitch and then pulled back late.

[Richard_Siegel]

As far as I could tell, the kid offered at the pitch and then pulled back late.

The point jmurray is trying to make is that pulling back, whether early, late, not at all, is not a factor that should used to determine if a batter checked his attempt at a bunt. All that is required in FED baseball to judge if the batter "went" on the bunt is if he made some kind of attempt to intentionally touch the ball with his bat.

7.2.1 SITUATION B: B1 starts to swing at the pitch but attempts to hold back on it or it appears as though he attempts to bunt the ball. In either case, B1 misses the ball. How does umpire determine what to call the pitch? RULING: A call of that nature is based entirely upon the umpire’s judgment. Therefore, the umpire must, in order to be consistent, have criteria to guide him in making the decision. The rule that most umpires follow is that if the bat is swung so it is in front of the batter’s body or ahead of it, it is a strike. In bunting, any movement of the bat toward the ball when the ball is over or near the plate area, is a strike. The mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not an attempt to bunt. (10-1-4a)

[OzUmp]

it is the whole thing about intent. did the batter intend to make contact with the ball on the bunt attempt or the check swing.. In other threads lately people are using this criteria to suggest that if a batter lamely swings at a ball just so he can get a strike then he is not attempting to strike the ball so they can rule it a ball. Perhaps technically this is true. But it is not the practice and never has been.

[bigbird69]

Hmmm, both cases coaches come at the umpires to complain about Balls & strikes... last time I looked, the rulebook is very specific on what you should have done.

Whining, no problem, you walk/charge at me over a ball/strike call, whoosh... that is not my interp, that is specified in every rulespec I have ever seen.

I will not be discussing it either.

I agree with Richard, the comment made about the coach... brought you down to their level and made you look bad...This is a case where he is clearly arguing balls/strike and is annimated about it... gone... if it was dealt with per the rulebook the first time, there would not have been a second time.

[kyle_jt]

All this would have been avoided if you didn't walk in to talk to your partner. He needs to be able to handle this himself.

After any controversial call, you need to stay away for at least an inning.

[mtnump]

Thanks for all the replies. I did say that I was foolish in coming to the plate after the ordeal. My partner probably got lessons on what to do and also what not to do that day. Had I been working with an experienced guy, I think there would have been no appeal to me on the play in the first place, and/or the coach would have been restriced/ejected/told to get back in the coaches box and remain silent/etc.

Again, thanks for the comments.

[lustersilk]

Take two key things mentioned in this thread as gospel:

Richard - "Whenever a base coach (even if he is the HC) leaves his position and approaches the PU to argue balls and strikes (arguing a checked swing is the same thing) it is an automatic EJ."

Kyle - "All this would have been avoided if you didn't walk in to talk to your partner. He needs to be able to handle this himself. After any controversial call, you need to stay away for at least an inning."